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Offline ByzCat3000

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Eastern Rites
« on: March 12, 2019, 12:27:23 PM »
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  • Was wondering what people's opinions are on the Eastern Rites, particularly in light of the current crisis of the Church.  

    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #1 on: March 12, 2019, 01:13:53 PM »
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  • I go to an eastern rite parish.  The priest is soldily Catholic, but he is clueless about the crisis in the Church.  


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #2 on: March 12, 2019, 01:17:00 PM »
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  • Was wondering what people's opinions are on the Eastern Rites, particularly in light of the current crisis of the Church.  

    My opinion on the Eastern rites is the same as my opinion of other cultures.

    1. I'm largely ignorant about them, and I prefer to only open my mouth when I'm an authority or an expert on something: when I know what I'm talking about.

    2. Even in the cases where a Liturgy or culture is well and good from a Catholic standpoint, it's still "not for me". I'm an American born and raised Traditional (Roman) Catholic in the Midwest, USA. English is my first language. My culture and outlook in all things is 100% Western. I am a Roman Rite Catholic, for better or worse. I could just as easily change my skin color, ethnicity, heritage, or primary language as I could join up with an Eastern Rite church and feel even 5% "at home".

    3. I believe that, all things being equal, God prefers us to stay where we're planted. Americans are all too rootless these days. If God meant for me to live and breathe in the Eastern Rite, he would have created me in an Eastern Rite family, and/or had me be born in a different country. It's simple, really.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #3 on: March 12, 2019, 01:22:29 PM »
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  • Well, Matthew, the Eastern Liturgy was a little strange to me the first time I attended, but once you get used to it a little you start to see its own beauty.

    Many Ruthenian communities are very much Americanized, with no use of any language other than English.  In fact, the Ruthenians were never like that since they actually sprawl across multiple languages and cultures, so there's no built-in culture.

    Even if your preference is for the Latin, Catholics may attend any approved Catholic Rite to fulfill their obligation.  So I think the question is, were there no Tridentine Masses available, would attending an available Eastern Rite Liturgy (with a group that hasn't been Novus Ordized like the Maronites) be --

    1) obligatory
    2) yellow light
    3) red light

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #4 on: March 12, 2019, 01:29:52 PM »
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  • Well, Matthew, the Eastern Liturgy was a little strange to me the first time I attended, but once you get used to it a little you start to see its own beauty.

    Many Ruthenian communities are very much Americanized, with no use of any language other than English.  In fact, the Ruthenians were never like that since they actually sprawl across multiple languages and cultures, so there's no built-in culture.

    Even if your preference is for the Latin, Catholics may attend any approved Catholic Rite to fulfill their obligation.  So I think the question is, were there no Tridentine Masses available, would attending an available Eastern Rite Liturgy (with a group that hasn't been Novus Ordized like the Maronites) be --

    1) obligatory
    2) yellow light
    3) red light


    I honestly don't know about your question at the end.

    I'll say this: I don't know if you told me where you're from, but between other things you've said ("all my daughters' friends wear makeup", hostility experienced towards large families, and speaking of a variety of Eastern Rites being in your area, I'm thinking you're not in Texas, much less rural Texas)

    Even in the 2nd largest city in Abraham Lincoln's home state, the Eastern Rites were a complete non-issue my whole life. If there were any, then no one I know was aware of them or even mentioned them -- pro, con or anything in-between.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #5 on: March 12, 2019, 01:34:04 PM »
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  • I'm all for variety and appreciating the differences between peoples, nations, races, and cultures.

    I would be the first to insist that all nations, cultures, etc. keep their identity (and of course their existence!) I'm completely against multiculturalism -- blending all the interesting colors together into a diarrhea-colored stew of humanity.

    However, in my opinion those differences are good and enjoyable for anything friendship and down, as far as intimacy goes. That is: vacations, study, appreciation, buying their cultural products, making friends, acquaintances, co-workers and customers from among them, etc.

    But for who you're going to yoke yourself to for life (marriage), I think it's best to stick with someone with the same upbringing and culture. A rich girl and a poor boy are going to have a LOT of trouble making it work. You're just from 2 different worlds, and as you go through life together, those different outlooks are going to cause disagreements not to say clashes and strife.

    Anything beyond a western, specifically Irish or German outlook on discipline/money/religious practices/life/you name it, and I quickly leave my comfort zone. Which is fine for a change of pace -- a few hours or days, during a vacation, a TV show, being with a friend, etc. but I wouldn't want to "live there" full time. Foreign and different is the spice of life, but in the end, as Dorothy once said, "There's no place like home!"
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #6 on: March 12, 2019, 01:43:58 PM »
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  • I'll admit, I think regular, white, English-speaking Americans joining an Eastern Rite (like Fr. Doran recently did) is kind of silly.

    It reminds me of transgenderism. Instead of gender dysmorphia, you have liturgical dysmorphia. "I was always an Eastern Rite Catholic trapped in a Roman Rite body. But now that I've transitioned, I feel free!"

    I realize it's not that bad, but it still reminds me of it. It still smacks of the same detachment from reality and common sense.

    I mean, people change religions all the time. But if you're going from Catholic to something else, that's APOSTASY. God never wants that. When you go from something else up to Catholic, you're CONVERTING. God always wants that. Both of those things have a reason or objective goodness/badness to them. But changing Rites? Can anyone really ever say that God wants you to change to a Rite you weren't born into?

    I'm only speaking my opinion and feelings here. I hardly ever do that. Most of my posts, you can take them to the bank as authoritative Church teaching on the matter.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #7 on: March 12, 2019, 01:54:19 PM »
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  • So I think the question is, were there no Tridentine Masses available, would attending an available Eastern Rite Liturgy (with a group that hasn't been Novus Ordized like the Maronites) be --

    Here's my question: WHICH group(s) haven't been Novus Ordo-ized?

    See, as a Trad, I firmly believe the Crisis is NOT just about the Mass. That's why my family didn't move to a place with an Eastern Rite Mass as a "full solution" to the Crisis. My family didn't jump into the first Indult that came to town, for the same reason. It's not just about the Mass. For some ignorant non-Trads, it is. If they have a reverent, valid Mass, then they are 100% happy, 100% home free.

    If the group in question fails to back up +Williamson, +Zendejas (etc.) and fails to stand with them in criticizing all the problems in Modernist Rome -- we're talking about the Catholic Faith here after all, so any heresies are Liturgy-neutral -- then what good is it if their Liturgy avoids most/all of the Modernist errors seen in the Novus Ordo Missae?

    The Mass is only part of the Crisis.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #8 on: March 12, 2019, 01:55:31 PM »
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  • Here's my question: WHICH group(s) haven't been Novus Ordo-ized?

    See, as a Trad, I firmly believe the Crisis is NOT just about the Mass. That's why my family didn't move to a place with an Eastern Rite Mass as a "full solution" to the Crisis.

    If the group in question fails to back up +Williamson, +Zendejas (etc.) and fails to stand with them in criticizing all the problems in Modernist Rome -- we're talking about the Catholic Faith here after all, so any heresies are Liturgy-neutral -- then what good is it if their Liturgy avoids most/all of the Modernist errors seen in the Novus Ordo Missae?

    The Mass is only part of the Crisis.

    Well, I guess we need to define Novus Ordo-ized.  Most of the Eastern Rite chapels I've been to are no more liberal than what you might find in the 1940s and 1950s in the U.S.

    Would a Catholic have been permitted to stay home from Sunday Mass in the 1950s if the priest at his church happened to be a Modernist (many, many were in the 1950s)?

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #9 on: March 12, 2019, 01:57:16 PM »
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  • Well, I guess we need to define Novus Ordo-ized.  Most of the Eastern Rite chapels I've been to are no more liberal than what you might find in the 1940s and 1950s in the U.S.
    But is Modern Rome liberal?

    If so, then were are all the Eastern Rite priests and bishops speaking out against the problems in the Church, beside +ABL, +De Castro Mayer, the 4 SSPX Bishops (back in the day), the 4 Resistance bishops, etc.?
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #10 on: March 12, 2019, 01:59:32 PM »
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  • Would a Catholic have been permitted to stay home from Sunday Mass in the 1950s if the priest at his church happened to be a Modernist (many, many were in the 1950s)?
    Yes, because Modernism is dangerous to the Faith, just like it is today.
    HOWEVER, that situation would almost never occur, because in that milieu (before Vatican II) there were a lot more than 1 Tridentine Mass option in each city! You had 1 Catholic church per neighborhood or per area, not per city or per state like today. So you would have to go to a different parish church, not stay home on Sunday.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #11 on: March 12, 2019, 02:31:56 PM »
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  • I'll admit, I think regular, white, English-speaking Americans joining an Eastern Rite (like Fr. Doran recently did) is kind of silly.

    For context, just wondering, were you born Catholic?  'cause if you were born latin rite Catholic I can see how a post like this would make sense. For my own part I was raised Protestant, and want to convert.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #12 on: March 12, 2019, 02:39:10 PM »
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  • For context, just wondering, were you born Catholic?  'cause if you were born latin rite Catholic I can see how a post like this would make sense. For my own part I was raised Protestant, and want to convert.
    Yes I was born Catholic, and Trad Catholic at that. Grew up going to an independent chapel. And that is somewhat unusual, since I was born in the mid-70's.

    By the way, I know you're new here, but there's a large post linked at the top of the site, "Read an Interview with Matthew..." that's me. In that post I mention that part of my background. It takes a while to read all of it -- but one of these days, when you have time, you might want to peruse it if you're bored.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #13 on: March 12, 2019, 02:58:47 PM »
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  • I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with switching Rites or deciding to go to Eastern Rite masses when you convert, but I'd heed what Matthew and Ladislaus said and be sure to not just pick it for the sake of it being exotic or having more interesting "smells and bells". If you feel like the Eastern Rite is preferable for you, then go ahead. But don't pick it because you think it looks prettier. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Eastern Rites
    « Reply #14 on: March 12, 2019, 02:59:49 PM »
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  • Fr Hesse made the point that one should stick with the rite of Church that one grew up in.  Obviously, times are so that fulfillment of one's sunday obligation makes attending Eastern rites necessary but his/Matthew's points are similar in that a Western-born mindset would be attuned to the Latin rite, while a person born in the East would gravitate towards the Eastern rites, all things being equal.  I would think that some minor things in the West would be scandalous (at first) to an Eastern rite Catholic and vice versa.

     

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