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Author Topic: Eastern Rite Newchurch Traditionalists Continue Their Revolt against Francis  (Read 3052 times)

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Offline epiphany

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An Eastern Newchurch Presbyter
Simulates the East Syriac Rite
In the Traditional Way
Facing away from the Congregation
Francis-Bergoglio Is Trying to Force
The Newchurch Eastern Rite
To Face the Congregation
Following the Heretic Vatican II Anti-council
The Easterners Are Revolting against Bergoglio
And May Reject Bergoglio Entirely
And Go Indpendent
Just as So Many Pseudo-traditionalist Newchurchers
In the West Have Done
Since the Heretic Vatican II Anti-council



Far more virulent than the uprising in the Western Newchurch of the New Order about the Half New Order "Extraordinary" New Latin Mess of 1962 is that going on in the East, where the Eastern Newchurchers are in fierce revolt against Francis-Bergoglio over the Eastern Newchurch rites. It should, however, be pointed out that the Eastern rites in Newchurch are just as invalid as the Western rites. For further information on this topic, click on FAQ10: How Do You Explain These Traditional Catholic Beliefs? in the TRADITIO Network's Library of Files (FAQs and Traditional Apologetics) department in the section "Eastern Rite 'Option.'"

From the Church?s earliest days, Syro-Malabar (East Syriac) priests celebrated the Eucharistic liturgy facing east (ad orientem), away from the congregation. They continued to do so during the period of Latinization, an era in which Western clergy also celebrated Mass ad orientem. When after the heretic Vatican II Anti-council (1962-1965), Newchurch attempted to turn around its altars -- now called "eucaristic dinner tables" -- many of the Easterners refused to change their traditional liturgy. Even when Bergoglio himself tried to intervene and impose a new liturgy upon the ancient Syro-Mabars, with the presbyter facing toward the congregation, the more traditionalist Easterners rejected his intervention and took their rejection into the streets.

In August 2021, when Bergoglio tried to enforce the non-traditionalist Eastern liturgy, the esteemed Newarchbishop of Ernakulam-Angamaly, six other Newbishops, and a growing number of presbyters refused to yield to Bergoglio, stating that his decision to impose the new liturgy "was not reached through proper, mandatory consultations, and transparent procedures" and was therefore "a cause of disunity in the Church." They then went onto a very public hunger strike against Bergoglio.

Yet on March 25, 2022, Bergoglio doubled down and ordered the implementation of the new liturgy. As a result, a melee broke out at the Newarchbishop's house and spilled out into the streets. When on April 10, 2022, an attempt was made to impose Bergoglio's new liturgy at the Syro-Malabar Newcathedral Basilica, 62 police officers and a commando force of 12 had to be called in to restore order. [Some information for this Commentary was contributed by the Catholic News Service.]

Traditional Catholics, Francis-Bergoglio has attempted to intervene in the Eastern Rite revolt by acting as a dictator. He has put his "authority" on the line and been rejected by a large part of the Eastern Newchurch. He has brought the matter literally to fisticuffs. No end is in sight. The traditionalist Easterners may now reject Bergoglio entirely and go independent, just as so many Traditional Catholics in the West have already done since the heretic Vatican II Anti-council.

July 26
http://traditio.com/comment/com2207.htm


Offline Ladislaus

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It should, however, be pointed out that the Eastern rites in Newchurch are just as invalid as the Western rites. For further information on this topic, click on FAQ10: How Do You Explain These Traditional Catholic Beliefs?

This man ... an extremely doubtful "priest" (we can call him a presbyter) ... is utterly insane.  There's absolutely zero reason to have any positive doubt about the validity of the Catholic Eastern Rites.  He also calls the 1962 Tridentine Mass "HALF" Novus Ordo, which is utterly ridiculous to anyone who has gone past 1st grade math.

This man is to be avoided and falsely postures as a Traditional Catholic.


Offline DigitalLogos

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This man ... an extremely doubtful "priest" (we can call him a presbyter) ... is utterly insane.  There's absolutely zero reason to have any positive doubt about the validity of the Catholic Eastern Rites.  He also calls the 1962 Tridentine Mass "HALF" Novus Ordo, which is utterly ridiculous to anyone who has gone past 1st grade math.

This man is to be avoided and falsely postures as a Traditional Catholic.
On an episode of WCB, I heard Fr. Jenkins, in response to the Dimonds, state that there were changes made to the Eastern Rite. But he never specified what exactly and I can't find anything on it.
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline Ladislaus

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Let's have a look at the stupidity from this man who likely has less training for the priesthood than I do.

Here's his "proof" (provided at the link) that the Eastern Rites are equally invalid as the Western, one paragraph at a time:
Quote
First, of all, Catholics are generally prohibited from switching
rites.  This is particularly true in the case of (traditional) Roman-Rite
Catholics, who are already members of the Church's precedential rite. 
Therefore, in those rare cases where rite switching is permitted, the
transition is almost always from the Eastern to the Roman, the rite of
St. Peter.
bzzzzzt.  Nobody is talking about "switching Rites", but just about whether the Sacraments are valid.  He's also got it completely backwards, claiming that it is more generally permitted to switch from Eastern to Western.  Opposite is true.  There has been a concern in many countries that the Western Rites (which are more pervasive and widespread) would eventually cannibalize all the Eastern by drawing away its membership.  Finally, his assertion that Catholics are "generally prohibited" from switching Rites, these are obviously not normal times, and to reiterate, this isn't about switching Rites but about receiving the Sacraments and whether they are "valid".

Does this man even have a GED much less a true Catholic seminary education?
Quote
Second, the Eastern Rites have in many cases abandoned their
Apostolic form.  At one time the Easterners had Apostolic rites, but many
have now fallen away from these because of the constant wars and
conquests of invasion in the East (from which the Western Church has thankfully been
spared).  The liturgical scholar Fr. Adrian Fortescue once wrote:  "The
ruthless destruction of the ancient rites in favor of uniformity has been
the work not of Rome but of the schismatical patriarchs of Constantinople.
Since the thirteenth Century Constantinople in its attempt to make itself the
one center of the Orthodox Church has driven out the far more venerable and
ancient liturgies of Antioch and Alexandria and has compelled all the
Orthodox to use its own late derived rite."
Again, he of a High-School-caliber intellect misunderstands Father Fortescue, who is saying that Constantinople attempted to suppress the non-Byzantine Rites such as the Antiochene and Alexandran, but the Byzantine Rites are equally apostolic.  So, what does this bozo contend, that these Rites have been Modernist and "invalid" for many centuries?  And the Holy See was wrong in accepting them as legitimate, Catholic, and valid?  Those who studied the Rites hold that they are essentially the same as the Rites of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil.  Remember that this clown is the same one who contends that the 1962 Tridentine Mass is "HALF" Novus Ordo, so for him a 3-word change means substantial change, so how is he to be taken seriously in claiming that there's substantial change in these Rites?  PS:  there hasn't been.
Quote
Finally, since Vatican II many of the Eastern churches substitute a
more vernacularized, Novus-Ordoized worship service.  This is
particularly true in the United States.  Roman-Rite Catholics are easily duped by
these "modernized" Eastern rites because they are ignorant of the Eastern Rite
and their liturgical languages (Biblical Greek, Syriac, etc.).
Here again he puts his gross ignorance on display.  Eastern Rites commonly used the vernacular before Vatican II.  At one point, St. Pius X commanded the Hungarian Byzantines to switch to Classical Greek.  He gave them several years to make the transition, but then he died and the subsequent popes rescinded it.  And there were others who were not thus commanded to transition.  In fact, many of the Eastern Rites have used neither Biblical Greek or Syriac, but old Slavonic, which was in fact the vernacular at the time it was introduced by Sts. Cyril and Methodius, as were Greek and Syriac in their day.  So, no, this is not "since Vatican II".  He's also lying (and/or grossly ignorant) that the Eastern Liturgies were were "Novus-Ordized" ... with the exception of the Maronite Rite.  Rest were largely untouched and unchanged until in some parts of the world (including US), there was a very slight revision of the translations and especially the melodies (as the ancient melodies seemed ill fit for English).  Their translations were accurate, e.g., they have always kept "for you and for many", and otherwise tried to remain faithful to the Greek text.  Nor does any of this affect validity.

then blah blah blah, he goes on a rant about the modernization of the Maronite Rite, which is somewhat accurate, as the Maronites have always had a Romanizing tendency (which benefitted them before V2 but hurt them post V2 by trying to adapt somewhat to the V2 changes).  But this was almost entirely in accidentals, such as facing the people, the position of the altar, etc.  More recently have started using lay female readers and altar girls.  But even despite these abuses, the Rite itself is essentially unchanged and undoubtedly valid.  Even when the rest of the Mass is in English, they say the words of consecration in the original Aramaic.

This pseudo-priest and pseudo-Traditional Catholic blows a lot of smoke out of his posterior, without proof, and clearly putting his gross ignorance on display for the entire world to see.  He denounces just about everything as invalid ... when his own Holy Orders are in extreme doubt.  His nonsense should rightly be banned from this forum, as I believe it was for some time by Matthew.

Offline trento

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This TRADITIO bozo also seems to be twisting facts. 

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Kochi/protesting-priests-mull-quitting-syro-malabar-church/article65305907.ece

The crux of the controversy is that the Ernakulam-Angamaly archdiocese, one of the largest units of the Syro-Malabar Church, has been following the practice of the celebrant (priest) facing the congregation throughout the Mass. However, the Synod of Bishops of the church issued a diktat in August last year that Mass celebration should be uniform as many of the dioceses celebrated it with the priest facing the congregation for the first half and then facing the tabernacle (holy of holies) for the second half.



Offline Minnesota

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Yes, Lad is spot-on. Traditio is using awful reasoning. It makes zero sense and is essentially heretical.
Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed

Offline Ladislaus

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Yes, Lad is spot-on. Traditio is using awful reasoning. It makes zero sense and is essentially heretical.

He uses no "reasoning" whatsoever, as properly understood.  I've never seen him make an actual Thomistic/syllogistic argument, as he must feel that simple bluster proves his point.  It's no wonder that Matthew banned links from his site for a while.  He's done his absurd 1962 Tridentine Rite is HALF Novus Ordo for many years now.  He also doesn't have the humility to admit that the NO Sacraments are merely doubtful, but asserts their invalidity as a certainty ... as if he had the authority to adjudicate the matter.  He clearly has no training in Catholic theology.  I think people dug up that he got his "Orders" from someone in the highly dubious Duarte Costa line, which is as likely invalid as the NO Rite of Ordination ... and likely had no formal seminary training.

Offline Minnesota

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Traditio is one of the main problems with the Traditional Catholic movement: A lot of people think they're the Church. They are those Protestant megachurch pastors who butcher Sacred Scripture with Catholic externals and a Catholic veneer over it.
Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed


Offline confederate catholic

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So the traditio guy is just dumb
The Syriac rites have always had some of the readings facing the people, and most of the fore mass takes place outside the sanctuary. The Malabar faced the people for both post VII. The changes are actually in favor of tradition with the priest now facing east properly. Frank actually is removing the bishop who refused ad orientem. So exactly opposite of what traditio says
قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

Offline Minnesota

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So the traditio guy is just dumb
The Syriac rites have always had some of the readings facing the people, and most of the fore mass takes place outside the sanctuary. The Malabar faced the people for both post VII. The changes are actually in favor of tradition with the priest now facing east properly. Frank actually is removing the bishop who refused ad orientem. So exactly opposite of what traditio says
Traditio has always been dumb. Blatant falsehoods, inaccurate everything, sensationalist writing. Their Mass center directory included, by the way.
Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed

Offline epiphany

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Traditio has always been dumb. Blatant falsehoods, inaccurate everything, sensationalist writing. Their Mass center directory included, by the way.
I disagree.
Their mass center directory has been very beneficial.  I just don't look at their ratings (smiling faces vs frowning faces).


Offline trento

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I disagree.
Their mass center directory has been very beneficial.  I just don't look at their ratings (smiling faces vs frowning faces).
Not when he and some of the listed places in his directory are of dubious validity.

Offline Minnesota

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Not when he and some of the listed places in his directory are of dubious validity.

Or outdated. A lot of Trad chapels and missions don't last long. I know some MN locations are years out of date on there. Do your own research and you should be fine.
Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed

Offline 2Vermont

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Traditio has always been dumb. Blatant falsehoods, inaccurate everything, sensationalist writing. Their Mass center directory included, by the way.
Their directory helped me find my chapel. 
For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

Offline epiphany

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Or outdated. A lot of Trad chapels and missions don't last long. I know some MN locations are years out of date on there. Do your own research and you should be fine.
I know traditio relies on people providing update information so they can keep the list updated.