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Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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Eastern Orthodox miracles
« on: August 17, 2014, 06:28:38 PM »
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  • Anyone familiar with the following..I'm arguing with Eastern Orthodox
    http://www.holyfire.org/eng/

    The ceremony, which awes the souls of Christians, takes place in the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem. The date for Pascha is determined anew for every year. It must be a first Sunday after the spring equinox and Jewish Passover. Therefore, most of the time it differs from the date of Catholic and Protestant Easter, which is determined using different criteria. The Holy Fire is the most renowned miracle in the world of Eastern Orthodoxy. IIt has taken place at the same time, in the same manner, in the same place every single year for centuries. No other miracle is known to occur so regularly and so steadily over time. No other miracle is known to occur so regularly and so steadily over time. It happens in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, the holiest place on earth[2], where Christ was crucified, entombed, and where He finally rose from the dead.
    up to content Ceremony of Holy Light

    In order to be as close to the Sepulchre as possible, pilgrims camp next to it. The Sepulchre is located in the small chapel called Holy Ciborium, which is inside the Church of the Resurrection. Typically they wait from the afternoon of Holy Friday in anticipation of the miracle on Holy Saturday. Beginning at around 11:00 in the morning the Christian Arabs chant traditional hymns in a loud voice. These chants date back to the Turkish occupation of Jerusalem in the 13th century, a period in which the Christians were not allowed to chant anywhere but in the churches. "We are the Christians, we have been Christians for centuries, and we shall be forever and ever. Amen!" - they chant at the top of their voices accompanied by the sound of drums. The drummers sit on the shoulders of others who dance vigorously around the Holy Ciborium. But at 1:00 pm the chants fade out, and then there is a silence. A tense silence, charged from the anticipation of the great demonstration of God's power for all to witness.

    Shortly thereafter, a delegation from the local authorities elbows its way through the crowd. At the time of the Turkish occupation of Palestine they were Muslim Turks; today they are Israelis. Their function is to represent the Romans at the time of Jesus. The Gospels speak of the Romans that went to seal the tomb of Jesus, so that his disciples would not steal his body and claim he had risen. In the same way the Israeli authorities on this Holy Saturday come and seal the tomb with wax. Before they seal the door, they follow a custom to enter the tomb, and to check for any hidden source of fire, which would make a fraud of the miracle.[1,2]

    up to content How the miracle occurs

    "I enter the tomb and kneel in holy fear in front of the place where Christ lay after His death and where He rose again from the dead... (narrates Orthodox Patriarch Diodor - ed.). I find my way through the darkness towards the inner chamber in which I fall on my knees.Miracle of God. At a certain point the light rises and forms a column in which the fire is of a different nature... See also a line of lights at bottom-left Here I say certain prayers that have been handed down to us through the centuries and, having said them, I wait. Sometimes I may wait a few minutes, but normally the miracle happens immediately after I have said the prayers. From the core of the very stone on which Jesus lay an indefinable light pours forth. It usually has a blue tint, but the colour may change and take many different hues. It cannot be described in human terms. The light rises out of the stone as mist may rise out of a lake — it almost looks as if the stone is covered by a moist cloud, but it is light. This light each year behaves differently. Sometimes it covers just the stone, while other times it gives light to the whole sepulchre, so that people who stand outside the tomb and look into it will see it filled with light. The light does not burn — I have never had my beard burnt in all the sixteen years I have been Patriarch in Jerusalem and have received the Holy Fire. The light is of a different consistency than normal fire that burns in an oil lamp... At a certain point the light rises and forms a column in which the fire is of a different nature, so that I am able to light my candles from it. When I thus have received the flame on my candles, I go out and give the fire first to the Armenian Patriarch and then to the Coptic. Hereafter I give the flame to all people present in the Church."

    While the patriarch is inside the chapel kneeling in front of the stone, there is darkness but far from silence outside. One hears a rather loud mumbling, and the atmosphere is very tense. When the Patriarch comes out with the two candles lit and shining brightly in the darkness, a roar of jubilee resounds in the Church.[2]

    The Holy Light is not only distributed by the Archbishop, but operates also by itself. It is emitted from the Holy Sepulchre with a hue completely different from that of natural light. It sparkles, it flashes like lightning, it flies like a dove around the tabernacle of the Holy Sepulchre, and lights up the unlit lamps of olive oil hanging in front of it. It whirls from one side of the church to the other. It enters some of the chapels inside the church, as for instance the chapel of the Calvery (at a higher level than the Holy Sepulchre) and lights up the little lamps. It lights up also the candles of certain pilgrims. In fact there are some very pious pilgrims who, every time they attended this ceremony, noticed that their candles lit up on their own accord!Marvel picture. For a few minutes after Holy Fire appearance, if it touches the face, or the mouth, or the hands, it does not burnhis divine light also presents some peculiarities: As soon as it appears it has a bluish hue and does not burn. At the first moments of its appearance, if it touches the face, or the mouth, or the hands, it does not burn. This is proof of its divine and supernatural origin. We must also take into consideration that the Holy Light appears only by the invocation of an Orthodox Archbishop.[1]

    The miracle is not confined to what actually happens inside the little tomb, where the Patriarch prays. What may be even more significant, is that the blue light is reported to appear and be active outside the tomb. Every year many believers claim that this miraculous light ignites candles, which they hold in their hands, of its own initiative. All in the church wait with candles in the hope that they may ignite spontaneously. OOften unlit oil lamps catch light by themselves before the eyes of the pilgrims. The blue flame is seen to move in different places in the Church. A number of signed testimonies by pilgrims, whose candles lit spontaneously, attest to the validity of these ignitions. The person who experiences the miracle from close up by having the fire on the candle or seeing the blue light usually leaves Jerusalem changed, and for everyone having attended the ceremony, there is always a "before and after" the miracle of the Holy Fire in Jerusalem.

    Offline Matthew

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    Eastern Orthodox miracles
    « Reply #1 on: August 17, 2014, 06:40:04 PM »
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  • Why are you arguing with the Orthodox? Shake the dust off your feet. They are schismatic heretics.

    God will not use His Divine Power to witness to a lie -- much less a false religion.

    The Orthodox are "close but no cigar". They might have some of the trappings of Catholicism, but in point of fact they are no more Catholic than your local Assembly of God. And they will get you about as close to eternal salvation.

    Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. Outside the Church there is no salvation.

    The devil can do *preternatural* things to deceive and lead people astray, since his angelic power and understanding of physics allows him to do things that are beyond nature (preternatural).

    A miracle, properly speaking, is something that only God can do -- like bring a dead body to life.

    People today call a newborn baby "a miracle" which is obviously an abuse of the term.
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    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    « Reply #2 on: August 17, 2014, 07:46:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Why are you arguing with the Orthodox? Shake the dust off your feet. They are schismatic heretics.

    God will not use His Divine Power to witness to a lie -- much less a false religion.

    The Orthodox are "close but no cigar". They might have some of the trappings of Catholicism, but in point of fact they are no more Catholic than your local Assembly of God. And they will get you about as close to eternal salvation.

    Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. Outside the Church there is no salvation.

    The devil can do *preternatural* things to deceive and lead people astray, since his angelic power and understanding of physics allows him to do things that are beyond nature (preternatural).

    A miracle, properly speaking, is something that only God can do -- like bring a dead body to life.

    People today call a newborn baby "a miracle" which is obviously an abuse of the term.

    I argue with everyone in hopes to convert them to the true faith

    Offline alaric

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    « Reply #3 on: August 17, 2014, 08:03:46 PM »
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  • Quote
    They are schismatic heretics.
    I'm curious to which. Or, are you saying they're both.

    Quote
    much less a false religion.
    Don't they claim to be "catholic" as well?

    ,
    Quote
    but in point of fact they are no more Catholic than your local Assembly of God.
    I wouldn't go that far. We are far more removed from protty heretical kooks  than differences like Papal Infallibility and the Fillioque.

    Quote
    Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. Outside the Church there is no salvation.
    Eastern Orthodox schismatics are excommunicated?

    Quote
    People today call a newborn baby "a miracle" which is obviously an abuse of the term.
    Yes, this is annoying like they refer to them as "angels" as well. :rolleyes:

    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #4 on: August 17, 2014, 10:13:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: alaric
    Quote
    Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. Outside the Church there is no salvation.
    Eastern Orthodox schismatics are excommunicated?


    Yes.

    Quote
    Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.'


    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm


    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #5 on: August 17, 2014, 10:34:29 PM »
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  • Yes, I know it's "only" the Filioque and Papal Primacy, but guess what? The Faith is integral; take out one part and the whole thing falls apart.

    It's like a balloon. Take out just one little piece of it with a pin -- leaving 99.99% undamaged, and what happens? BOOM!

    That's why it takes denying just ONE DOGMA of the Faith to become a heretic and be considered to have lost the Faith.

    The Faith isn't a cafeteria where you can pick and choose dogmas. It's a take-it-or-leave-it package deal.

    Sure, we might be tempted to think the Eastern Orthodox heretics/schismatics are "closer" to the Catholic Faith than the Assembly of God -- in the same way that nuclear war casualties right outside a large bomb shelter were "closer" to surviving than those incinerated at Ground Zero when the nuke hit. But they're both just as dead :)
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    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #6 on: August 17, 2014, 10:43:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, proclaimed ex cathedra:

    "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

    Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215):

    "There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved".  

    Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302):

    "We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.


    This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and that members of heretical and schismatic groups (such as the Eastern Orthodox) cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    « Reply #7 on: August 17, 2014, 10:45:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, proclaimed ex cathedra:

    "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

    Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215):

    "There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved".  

    Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302):

    "We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.


    This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and that members of heretical and schismatic groups (such as the Eastern Orthodox) cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ.

    yes of course, now they claim this miracle is for eastern orthodox only, just wondering if anyone had any insight to this matter


    Offline IllyricumSacrum

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    « Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 08:42:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, proclaimed ex cathedra:

    "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

    Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215):

    "There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved".  

    Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302):

    "We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.


    This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and that members of heretical and schismatic groups (such as the Eastern Orthodox) cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ.

    yes of course, now they claim this miracle is for eastern orthodox only, just wondering if anyone had any insight to this matter



    You can look it up yourself. Traditioninaction.org has some articles, I think. There was a Jacobite bishop in the 19th or early 20th centuries who converted to the TRUE FAITH in part due to his discovery of the "Holy Fire" hoax and how the Greek monks perpetrated it. Typical Balkan Greek snake oil salesmanship if you ask me.

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    « Reply #9 on: August 18, 2014, 07:29:38 PM »
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  • It's incredible that some people (except Cantarella) on this thread fallaciously leave open the possibility for a God-less partaker of Hollywood filth, Robin Williams, who died by suicide, which is a mortal sin, to make it to Heaven, but the Orthodox, including men and women in monasteries and convents, are "damned to perdition".

    Although I disagree with Cantarella about the Orthodox, I must still give her credit for being consistent...

    Orthodox are Catholic, but they're Catholics with defects. They are still baptized into the Church by valid priests conferring a Catholic Rite of Baptism; and their Liturgies are Catholic and even older than the Tridentine Mass, and all of their 7 Sacraments are valid. They don't view themselves as being in schism or breaking from the Church, rather, they view Rome as being in schism, therefore, there is the argument of invincible ignorance on their part, if you really want to get litigious about it.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Matto

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    « Reply #10 on: August 18, 2014, 07:34:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: ascent
    Orthodox are Catholic, but they're Catholics with defects.

    No, they are not Catholic any more than the Protestants even though they have valid sacraments. They are all damned (except for those who die before they reach the age of reason), unless they convert to Catholicism, despite your belief which reeks of Novus Ordism.
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    Offline Croix de Fer

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    « Reply #11 on: August 18, 2014, 08:45:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    despite your belief which reeks of Novus Ordism.


    I'm the furthest Catholic away from novus ordo. I even resisted going to my grandmother's funeral because it was novus ordo. The novus ordo is also the antithesis of Orthodoxy.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    « Reply #12 on: August 18, 2014, 08:53:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: ascent
    Quote from: Matto
    despite your belief which reeks of Novus Ordism.


    I'm the furthest Catholic away from novus ordo. I even resisted going to my grandmother's funeral because it was novus ordo. The novus ordo is also the antithesis of Orthodoxy.


    Correction: I went to her funeral, but I waited in the vestibule the whole time. I did not go inside the chapel during the novus ordo funeral / mass.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Matto

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    « Reply #13 on: August 18, 2014, 09:36:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: ascent
    Quote from: Matto
    despite your belief which reeks of Novus Ordism.


    I'm the furthest Catholic away from novus ordo. I even resisted going to my grandmother's funeral because it was novus ordo. The novus ordo is also the antithesis of Orthodoxy.


    No you are not. You share the belief with the Novus Ordo that those in schismatic Churches are Catholic and do not need to convert. The traditional Catholic Church has always taught that the schismatic "Orthodox" are not Catholic and are outside the Church.
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    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #14 on: August 18, 2014, 09:51:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: ascent
    It's incredible that some people (except Cantarella) on this thread fallaciously leave open the possibility for a God-less partaker of Hollywood filth, Robin Williams, who died by suicide, which is a mortal sin, to make it to Heaven, but the Orthodox, including men and women in monasteries and convents, are "damned to perdition".


    Repentance at death is always a possibility, but, of course, what is possible is not necessarily probable; it is wrong to presume, which is what the Novus Ordo is notorious for doing.  In any case, the following remains absolutely true:

    1)  Individuals, under no circumstances whatsoever, should take their own life, that is, commit suicide.  Such is always gravely sinful, and at a minimum, gravely risks eternal damnation, from which there is no escape.

    2)  The Orthodox, as with every other human being without exception, should convert to Catholicism, the One True Faith.  Such is the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church:

    Quote from: Fifth Lateran Council. 1512-17
    Moreover, since subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful, as we are taught by the testimony of both sacred scripture and the holy fathers, and as is declared by the constitution of pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, also our predecessor, which begins Unam sanctam, we therefore, with the approval of the present sacred council, for the salvation of the souls of the same faithful, for the supreme authority of the Roman pontiff and of this holy see, and for the unity and power of the church, his spouse, renew and give our approval to that constitution, but without prejudice to the declaration of pope Clement V of holy memory, which begins Meruit .


    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum18.htm

    The above should remove any and all doubt that it is an infallible teaching of the Catholic Church that "submission to the Roman Pontiff" is necessarily for salvation, for all human beings, whoever they may be.

     

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