The Faith that I know teaches "love thy enemies, do good to them that hate you. Pray for them that speak evil against you..."

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Obviously there is a context for both of these teachings of God.

Our Lord, hanging on the cross, did not look down at the men who literally crucified him... not just lived bad lives and led others astray, but committed the singularly heinous act of DEICIDE.

As long as the soul is united to the body there is time for mercy.

He did not shout down condemnations, or strike them dead.

If they died in that state, He sure will/did!

Rather His prayer was what I believe the prayer of every Catholic should be for every sinner, however grave, whatever the extent of their crimes: "Father forgive them."

If a person dies before you screaming something like "to h**l with J**** C****t!", are you going to love him or hate him?  What if it is your father?  Are you going to hold out hope that at the very last minute he repented before you could see it take place?

We know that God withdraws His grace at a certain point, and that He continually does so from those who continually offend Him.

Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will; and whom he will, he hardeneth...

It's easy to look at the men in the church over the last some decades and say, "these men MUST know they're destroying the faith of the people, they MUST be evil!"

If they are doing it accidentally, are they any less evil?  And with the sheer (evil) genius of their writings, can you possibly argue they were doing it accidentally?

But were you with them in the seminary? Look at what the average Catholic knows of his or her faith today, and think of some priest those people trust teaching them errors... perhaps errors they themselves were taught without taking them up out of malice.

Of these two gravities the first surpasses the second from the point of view of guilt; since, as stated above unbelief has the character of guilt, from its resisting faith rather than from the mere absence of faith, for the latter (ignorance) as was stated seems rather to bear the character of punishment. Hence, speaking absolutely, the unbelief of heretics is the worst.

Granted he was talking about heathens, but he certainly did not foresee the situation we are in today.

If a priest in a SEMINARY, before modernism had it's day in the sun, taught someone something, it's relatively easy to see how a young man would have believed it. BEFORE Vatican II, why WOULDN'T they believe what a teacher in a Catholic seminary said? And likewise those who taught the teachers.

So we're making excuses for people to have been misled by heresy?  God is being offended, but they were duped, so they're not evil?  Does someone have to carry a card in their wallet that says "I profess allegiance to sa**n" before they can be considered evil?

My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me.

I don't think so.  When I was in the Novus Ordo, I was both evil AND schismatic.

A wise man once pointed out that in order for the men of the Church to do the work of the bad guys who really do want to see the Church in ruins, they need not WANT to see it that way personally. They may have the best of intentions. All that matters is that they THINK like the bad guys.

Gee, guess what that makes them!

Well, for that to happen, all you need is to get the bad guys into positions ordinary Catholics normally would have trusted.

When you encounter young priests of the novus ordo sort, at least with some of them you get the strong impression of how they have no idea what the ideas they teach really are in the light of truth. Rather, you get the impression that these are men who were told certain things, and accepted them as truths.

They were told LIES and accepted them as truths, don't try to water it down.  If they were of God, they would see the contradictions, because truth cannot be in opposition to truth.

They are taught errors, and answers that they are taught support or prove the errors to be true. The men I speak of here show no malice for the Church, the Lord, or His flock (that they mean as malice, anyway). Yes, there are many who are different, but also some that really are like what I've just said.

Yes, but this doesn't make them any less evil.  They are either of God, who is Truth, or of the devil, the father of lies.

It's much easier, of course, to just condemn them all, because we're offended by what they say and do.

Easy?  It's the right thing to do!  You can't call a heretic a Catholic and expect to please God!  If he's publicly heretical or schismatic, you have to admonish him once and twice and then tell him goodbye!  We can't pronounce a sentence on him, but we can RECOGNIZE him as the firstborn of satan!

Certainly it feels better for our egos. "I give thee thanks that I am not like this heretic...

He's offending GOD!  How about God's feelings?!

I fast, do penance, attend a Latin Mass..." When every human being on the earth has only the right to be saying "have mercy on me, for I am a sinful man, o Lord."

You think it's about individual sedes elevating themselves?  Maybe in some cases it is, but that doesn't change the admonition of Titus 3:10-11.

But when it comes down to it, only God can say whether this or that man knew he was in error, or was destroying the Church.

The fact is he IS in error and we have to treat him accordingly until one of the following things happens:

1) He converts
2) He dies

If we don't do this, we are giving way to human respect, despite that an offense against God and the salvation of souls is taking place.

Don't forget that to admonish sinners and heretics is a spiritual work of mercy, and pertains to both charity and justice.

ALL human beings can be deceived by someone, especially if they trust anyone, which we all inevitably do. Mankind was never meant to have to live life like a paranoid schizophrenic, always looking out for a bad guy behind every bush.

Have you read the Old Testament?  Do you know what it was like to be a child of Israel throughout history?

We naturally trust others. So have many of these men. Has their trust been misplaced? Certainly. Are they, ALL OF THEM evil? I very much doubt it.

Evil doesn't necessarily mean they WANT to destroy souls, it means they ARE destroying souls!

But perhaps I shouldn't be surprised at those who dare to judge popes and even saints as if they were God, condemning these men who were, like ourselves, sinners.

That should have read "As if they believed the standards and precepts given by God in Scripture and Tradition"  In other words, if a person claims to be pope, but they are objectively transgressing the Faith, then they are not Catholic, nor the head of the body they are not a member of.  This is not judging a pope, but recognizing a liar.

Still, throughout history those who have had, to the most perfect degree, the spirit of Christ living in them, they have prayed for, done penance for, sacrificed for and begged God to spare sinners. Even great sinners. And again, the Lord Himself prayed, even for those who murdered Him unjustly.

Yes.  This goes back to the "soul is still united to the body" comment I made above.

If the saints can pray for heretics and sinners and horrible criminals of every kind, because the love of God is in them to desire the salvation, not the damnation, of the souls God surely did not ever desire to see in hell, and if God Himself can pray for those who tore to pieces His physical body...

Sometimes you just can't pray for someone.  Like when they DIE IN MORTAL SIN.

He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask.

I believe the example of the spirit of Christ in us is clear. If sinners, the blind, or even willfully malicious heretics and atheists, should spend their lives trying to tear to pieces the body of the Church, I believe what God would want (not what WE want, but what He would want) is for us to pray that they amend their lives and are converted, before it is too late for them to do so, even at the end.

Did you hear me express hatred for Benedict XVI?  No.  And I will not as long as his soul is united to his body.  If he dies as the heresiarch he is, I will recognize that ther eis only one place he can be, which means he will be devoid eternally of any good thing and there will be nothing in him worthy of love, but only hate.

But now, there is in him the potential of conversion to God inherent in his nature as a man, and it is most worthy of love and the hope that it may come to fruition.

Do you see the difference here?  Love all those who love God or who have the potential to love Him, and hate all those who hate Him and will do so eternally.  This is completely Catholic.

After all, think of all of the saints who started out as sinners, only to amend their lives and live them as blazing examples of holiness because they appreciated just how low they had sunk before.

St. Augustine is a powerhouse of inspiration to conversion.

Our Blessed Mother has come to earth multiple times with the message, "pray for sinners." Are we to believe that she only meant just the "pretty good people" out there who happen to commit some occasional venial sins out of weakness? Or shall we suppose rather, that she meant ALL sinners, regardless of the degree of their sins... or perhaps even because of their gravity?

Obviously she did NOT mean the souls of the damned.  They are beyond ANY help from the Church.

Call me whatever names you will, but I am going to go with Our Lord, Our Lady and the example of the saints. I believe we ought to pray for sinners... for ALL sinners... and hope that they save their souls.

I just realized you and I are talking about two entirely different things!

Anyone who takes delight in the damnation of a soul,

Not I.  But I'm not going to deny that it is the outcome of dying in mortal sin, and I will do what is right and profess my belief where such a one lies for all eternity.

I would worry that such a person has lost sight of what should be most evident to us whenever we see a crucifix... How much God loved us, and desired the salvation of men, not their damnation. To love God is to love what God loves... and God loves souls. If we hate them, knowing that it was one of His torments to know how many of them would be lost, have we really the love of Him in us?

Ah... then to hate God would be to love what He hates, wouldn't it?

I know it's easy to get upset/frustrated at what these men have done to the Church of Our Lord, but still... when we loose sight of the law He died proclaiming... the law of charity... what good is anything else in us, or anything else we do?

I wonder if you agree with me, since I see again that we have been discussing two separate things.

"And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."

Very very true.