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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Lover of Truth on August 31, 2009, 10:57:42 AM

Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 31, 2009, 10:57:42 AM
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: Belloc on August 31, 2009, 11:04:31 AM
One should never dress for Mass less than they would go out on a formal dinner date.......depends on weather too, if CHurch has no air and it is 100+ degrees, would likely ditch the tie and coat, dress slacks with polo or soemthing would possibly be appropriate.......clean and pressed,etc......

I wore for first time my Kilt yesterday, along with sport coat, pressed shirt and tie.........black dress casual choes.....

In my area, they make a bid deal about Hispanics, bnd over backward for them, though most flocking to Prots as they give out more........figuired I would go "ethnic" to boot, plus it was cooler in weather......

My priest is big into medevil period, thought it was great........if I hooked a sword, would have loved it even more..........he has pics with a big Crusader sword, gave one too a few yrs back to our new bishop...well enough of me.... :soapbox:
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: Vladimir on August 31, 2009, 11:56:58 PM
I wear a dress shirt, coat, and slacks to every Mass.
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: gladius_veritatis on September 01, 2009, 01:56:52 AM
Quote from: Belloc
One should never dress for Mass less than they would go out on a formal dinner date...


Outta whose arse did you pull that one?  :wink:  :cheers:

Look, I am all for decorum, dignity in dress (in and out of church), looking well-groomed, etc., but those in Traddieland seem to be given to excessive preoccupation with the externals.  Yes, look decent, but don't get all in a tizzy when someone else might not see things the way you do.

What is so great about a dull-colored suit and a piece of silk around your neck?  I am wearing a bow tie at work right now, but I do not find modern dress all that special, dignified, or noble, frankly, when compared to the dress of other eras.
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: Raoul76 on September 01, 2009, 04:51:31 AM
I'm with you on this one gladius.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I find the suit-and-tie dehumanizing and bureaucratic.  Not that I'm trying to be "punk," but I do question it as a standard of Christian wear.  I'd far prefer to wear a shaggy robe like the Church fathers.

I wear the same thing every day which is a dress shirt and slacks.  Because of my poverty, I usually wear the same outfit all week, taking it off when I get home and putting on wrinkled clothes from the hamper.  For Mass, however, I will break out a clean shirt and pants.  

I thought Catholics were supposed to be unconcerned with appearance, but now suddenly a crisp suit and tie are mandatory?  Isn't that the opposite of being unconcerned with appearance?  This strikes me as a symptom of bureaucratic attitudes that have somehow blended with Christianity.   That being said, it is the style of the time.

I plan to start wearing a suit for penance, because I hate them so much.  To me it's worse than a hair shirt.  I hate, hate, HATE modern men's clothing.

I'm also fed up with the obsession about dress.  Yeah, if people start coming into Church carelessly dressed and showing no respect, it's a problem.  Sometimes the priests don't have the gumption to say anything, such as one priest I know who didn't even rebuke a man who came to Church in a short-sleeved shirt -- with a bikinied female tattooed on his arm.  That was not at CMRI by the way.  

But in general pretty much everyone in tradland seems respectably dressed to me.   Get over it.  Move on.  Use your short time being in the presence of the Holy Eucharist to pray instead of sternly eyeing peoples' dress length.  No one is wearing Hawaaian shirts and flip-flops to traditional Masses.
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 01, 2009, 10:25:11 AM
I admire Raoul and Gladius more than anyone else I have read on this site.  Though I disagree with you both on this.  Casual attire worn at the most Holy Mass reeks of liberalism in my opinion.  

I respect your opinons however as I look up to you both as being more knowledgeable than I.  And I am sure people attended in sandals and robes after Christ.  

Dressing as if you were dressing for an important occasion would show the potential convert that you are attending something important, something not to be taken lightly.  
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: Telesphorus on September 01, 2009, 10:35:15 AM
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Dressing as if you were dressing for an important occasion would show the potential convert that you are attending something important, something not to be taken lightly.  


I lean towards the position that people should dress very respectably, and that it should be expected and enforced.  As for saying no one should notice - well, that's not realistic.  People will notice, and it's important that what they see should create an atmosphere appropriate for worship.

Suits that actually fit and are well-made might draw more attention than they should.

Sometimes it's a dilemma.
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: CMMM on September 01, 2009, 11:09:07 AM
I read an excellent article once on attire for the mass, and the point which clung to me most was dressing so as not to distract another from the mass itself.

With that in mind, modesty of dress would be what I advocate most, and dressing in such a way that you do offer as little distraction as possible.
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: SJB on September 03, 2009, 03:23:21 PM
Quote from: Raoul76
I'm with you on this one gladius.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I find the suit-and-tie dehumanizing and bureaucratic.  Not that I'm trying to be "punk," but I do question it as a standard of Christian wear.  I'd far prefer to wear a shaggy robe like the Church fathers.

I wear the same thing every day which is a dress shirt and slacks.  Because of my poverty, I usually wear the same outfit all week, taking it off when I get home and putting on wrinkled clothes from the hamper.  For Mass, however, I will break out a clean shirt and pants.  

I thought Catholics were supposed to be unconcerned with appearance, but now suddenly a crisp suit and tie are mandatory?  Isn't that the opposite of being unconcerned with appearance?  This strikes me as a symptom of bureaucratic attitudes that have somehow blended with Christianity.   That being said, it is the style of the time.

I plan to start wearing a suit for penance, because I hate them so much.  To me it's worse than a hair shirt.  I hate, hate, HATE modern men's clothing.

I'm also fed up with the obsession about dress.  Yeah, if people start coming into Church carelessly dressed and showing no respect, it's a problem.  Sometimes the priests don't have the gumption to say anything, such as one priest I know who didn't even rebuke a man who came to Church in a short-sleeved shirt -- with a bikinied female tattooed on his arm.  That was not at CMRI by the way.  

But in general pretty much everyone in tradland seems respectably dressed to me.   Get over it.  Move on.  Use your short time being in the presence of the Holy Eucharist to pray instead of sternly eyeing peoples' dress length.  No one is wearing Hawaaian shirts and flip-flops to traditional Masses.


Being concerned about ones appearance is important in many states of life. Too much concern is immodest, too little concern (according to one's duty of state) is the opposite error (which I cannot think of at the moment).
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: SJB on September 06, 2009, 05:30:24 PM
Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Dressing as if you were dressing for an important occasion would show the potential convert that you are attending something important, something not to be taken lightly.  


I lean towards the position that people should dress very respectably, and that it should be expected and enforced.  As for saying no one should notice - well, that's not realistic.  People will notice, and it's important that what they see should create an atmosphere appropriate for worship.

Suits that actually fit and are well-made might draw more attention than they should.

Sometimes it's a dilemma.


Really? So an ill fitting and poorly made suit is more modest?

So is a Catholic Tailor sinning when he makes well tailored and good fitting suits?
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: Matthew on September 06, 2009, 06:11:30 PM
My (French) spiritual director once told me, "do what the others do." (referring to my fellow seminarians).

Applying this to dress, I should A) dress as well as I ever dress when going to Mass, and B) I shouldn't stand out, as if I'm somehow more important, rich, famous, etc.

People my age (low 30's) don't normally wear suits. I'm from a very "informal" generation.

Moreover, my regional culture comes into play. In Texas, if you're worth millions of dollars, you'll probably still go to fast food restaurants, wear a hawaiian shirt and tennis shoes -- and a person talking to you would NEVER guess your net worth. It's a Texas thing, I guess.

In New York, a similar rich man would be wearing nice suits, a Rolex watch, would have a nice car, etc. Not so in Texas.

Weather might play a role -- in Texas, it's hot about 7 months of the year. Wearing a heavy coat just isn't that appealing when it's in the 90's (or 100's) for months on end. The culture adapts to deal with this fact.

With all that in mind, I think "dressing up" for Mass is appropriate, as long as you're not looking ridiculous (most formal would be dressing like you're going to a wedding -- black tuxedo and bowtie, etc.). In other words, both you and those around you should know that Mass means something to you. You shouldn't ever look nicer than you do when attending Mass.

For what it's worth, I always wear a button-down shirt and tie, and khaki-type pants (white, beige, or black). I dress better than most of my peers, from what I can tell. If I wore a suit coat I'd only have company with men 2 (or 3) times my age. In my book, that would qualify as being eccentric.

I have a (cheap) suit coat that I bring out for Mass on Christmas and Easter. Other than for those 2 days, it never gets worn.

Dinner date? I don't even know what that is. My wife and I are very down-to-earth and practical, and we were the same way when we were dating. Our idea of "dining out" for a special occasion is going to a sit-down Mexican restaurant which costs $20 TOTAL.

Anyhow, I'm not from Texas but I really fit in here with my down-to-earth upbringing and the common sense I have (thanks to God and my parents). Texans are all about being down-to-earth and informal.

If it helps, I DO feel dressed up when I walk into a store in my "church clothes". I feel like I'm advertising that I've been to Mass recently.

I'm not very fond of suits either. I also think they are way too "generic" and "establishment". I'm not a punk, but I could have been under different circumstances. I sympathize with the punk movement, since they were justifiably upset with what they saw as a culture-less, vapid (empty), banal, conformist society that would take away their humanity and individuality.

I can understand why someone wouldn't want to be "just another brick in the wall".

Matthew
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: Caminus on September 06, 2009, 07:46:14 PM
This is a tricky question in that it involves only what is acceptable to the subjective tastes of man and his exterior senses.  The question of custom certainly comes into play, but the universal standard is simple, unadorned and modest clothing that covers your entire body (arms included).  

I agree with Matthew in that I see "suits" as something relating to secular trends of self-important people.  They just cry "banker" or "accountant" not Mass attire.  I would much rather wear sackcloth and ashes but since that would bring way too much attention to myself because it falls so far outside of common custom it's out of the question.

I just don't see how dressing one's "best" fits in with piety since "best" always refers to the tastes of other people.  I can get my mind around being clean, sober, simple and modest, but the category of "best" fails me.  

But I think Matthew's director's advice is the norm: do what other people do, out of humility and the desire to not be noticed and respect for the brethren.  This is probably similar to St. Paul's injunction regarding not eating meat in certain situations.  It wasn't inherently wrong, just scandalous to other people's perception.  
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: Telesphorus on September 07, 2009, 09:52:21 AM
There's nothing "too formal" with wearing a jacket.

If only a few men wore a jacket, it could be a slippery slope to a casual mass.

The bottom line is that overly casual dress must be firmly resisted, because it takes over if it is not resisted.

Overly casual dress invariably leads to the appearance of a lack of reverence.
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: Elizabeth on September 07, 2009, 09:59:18 AM
True, but really with such high heat and humidity it isn't really practical.   I am usually for the more formal, but when it's that boiling hot and humid I believe it puts too much discomfort on the parishoners.

But I say down with cheap polyesters :light-saber: That's a slippery slope!
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: kamalayka on October 17, 2009, 11:14:36 PM
Can I wear jeans?

I don't own a suit. I don't have any money!! I can't afford a suit!


Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: stevusmagnus on October 19, 2009, 01:12:23 PM
Quote from: Telesphorus

The bottom line is that overly casual dress must be firmly resisted, because it takes over if it is not resisted.

Overly casual dress invariably leads to the appearance of a lack of reverence.


Bingo! Good thing this thread is not on FE as a majority of the posters have proved themselves clueless on this topic. No doubt a majority of them would have already mercilessly accused Spouse. Tele. etc. of being judgmental jerks and the thread would have been locked due to lack of charity and the OP banned.

Again it is with a sigh of relief that I am able to actually have an intelligent discussion of this topic with Catholics whose Catholicism does not exclude all externals as if they were evil. This is not to say we will all agree, but at least the discussion is with those who are sane and get it rather than imbeciles who can't distinguish discussing proper attire from condemnation of them as individuals (most likely because they dress like slobs for Holy Mass).

In any case, the key points here are reverence, modesty, and respect for Our Lord. Casualness and familiarity in dress is to be avoided as a rule. As has been pointed out, this doesn't mean wearing a tux to every Mass, but it does mean wearing something that shows respect. I doubt any of us would go to a business interview in a t-shirt and shorts out of human respect. So we should at least make an effort out of respect for God.

Coats, ties etc. are up to the individual, but I'd say minimum you'd want slacks, khakis, dress shoes, button down shirt for guys. (Even if you are dirt poor can you not find khakis for a few bucks at good will? Jeans are often more expensive) If you live in a tropical/ warm climate collared polo shirts would be acceptable I think. But again, this would be the minimum. If someone wants to wear a suit, more power to them. Most wear a suit for work every day anyway.

I continually fail to see how something so simple, showing respect for God through dress at mass is so vehemently attacked by Neo-Trads and others. They will defend the most egregious offenders of basic respect at Mass rather than agree that there is something wrong.

Of course you don't go yell at someone who dresses inappropriately, but hopefully the congregation is dressing properly enough that they easily see they are out of place. If the congregation is clueless and thinks "God doesn't care what I wear, He better be glad I'm even here." then the priest needs to give them a wake-up call. The state of most NO parishes is so atrocious that parishioners are frequently showing up in shorts and t-shirts.

Can you imagine this practice in a Traditional chapel? It is almost like slapping God in the face to me. "I could give a crap, I wear what I want, you're lucky I'm here." comes to mind.

The terrible lack of reverence embodied, in part in the dress of
NO parishioners is one of the factors that made me realize something was wrong and inspired my journey to Tradition. Externals do matter.

Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: Caraffa on October 19, 2009, 02:47:55 PM
Quote
I continually fail to see how something so simple, showing respect for God through dress at mass is so vehemently attacked by Neo-Trads and others. They will defend the most egregious offenders of basic respect at Mass rather than agree that there is something wrong.

Of course you don't go yell at someone who dresses inappropriately, but hopefully the congregation is dressing properly enough that they easily see they are out of place. If the congregation is clueless and thinks "God doesn't care what I wear, He better be glad I'm even here." then the priest needs to give them a wake-up call. The state of most NO parishes is so atrocious that parishioners are frequently showing up in shorts and t-shirts.

Can you imagine this practice in a Traditional chapel? It is almost like slapping God in the face to me. "I could give a crap, I wear what I want, you're lucky I'm here." comes to mind.

The terrible lack of reverence embodied, in part in the dress of
NO parishioners is one of the factors that made me realize something was wrong and inspired my journey to Tradition. Externals do matter.


Externals in tota are a good indicator of someone's internals, where their soul is currently. When someone says "God should by happy that I'm here," they have adopted me-centered Christianity. Its like the pharisees in a way, "look how great I'm that I go to a TLM." Instead they should show respect to the fact that God lead them to tradition.

The Neo-trads are basically egalitarians who try to be like everyone else. Their suspect externals show their black internals.  
Title: DRESSING FOR MASS
Post by: Vladimir on October 19, 2009, 03:13:24 PM
Quote from: kamalayka
Can I wear jeans?

I don't own a suit. I don't have any money!! I can't afford a suit!




It depends on your gender. For men, I think that any pair of pants (preferably not jeans, you can buy a pair of slacks at your local clothing store - like Wal-Mart, or charity for twenty dollars or less) and a button up shirt is good.