Author Topic: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition (Read 24903 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #45 on:** November 20, 2024, 05:50:00 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 19, 2024, 05:05:42 PM

The other problem with the new rites is admitted by Fr Hesse, when he said his ordination was done "by the book". This implies that many are not.

Yes, and OTOH, it also shows the mind of the SSPX that when done "by the book," the ordination is valid.

This has been the case since the start of this crisis. In my mind, most (many?) NO priests are invalid due to the consecrating bishops not going "by the book."

A few decades ago, the SSPX had a type of running list of these bishops, as well as those known to always go "by the book." So when a NO priest came to them, the whole investigation might only be a matter of asking who ordained him. As was the case with Fr. Hesse and who knows how many others.

SimpleMan · « **Reply #46 on:** November 20, 2024, 07:23:19 AM »

Quote from: Johannes on November 19, 2024, 01:39:21 PM

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/docuмents/rc_ddf_doc_20240202_gestis-verbisque_en.html

You would be surprised. Bishop Sanborn actually claimed the opposite - he said it is the simplest Sacrament but the one that is most commonly messed up.

In some of the more, for lack of a better word, primitive manifestations of Protestantism, the minister will say "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost", with no "and of" before "the Son" or "the Holy Ghost". (Thankfully, at least they do often say "Holy Ghost".) It's more ungrammatical than anything else, but it is still kind of "cringe". They also immerse the baptized person just once, not three times. Whether either of these things makes the baptism doubtful, I couldn't say without looking further into the matter, I'm guessing that Jone (or someone) could put a finer point on it.

SimpleMan · « **Reply #47 on:** November 20, 2024, 07:24:37 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on November 20, 2024, 05:50:00 AM

Yes, and OTOH, it also shows the mind of the SSPX that when done "by the book," the ordination is valid.

This has been the case since the start of this crisis. In my mind, most (many?) NO priests are invalid due to the consecrating bishops not going "by the book."

Just out of curiosity, what would be an example of an NO ordination not being done "by the book"?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #48 on:** November 20, 2024, 08:15:03 AM »

Quote

Yes, and OTOH, it also shows the mind of the SSPX that when done "by the book," the ordination is valid.

Yes and the 'mind of the sspx' on the matter is baseless. As you said in the above post...But nobody is defending the new rite as positively valid, it has *always* been deemed "doubtful at best" by the faithful.

Even a "by the book" service is doubtful, because the doubts are inherent in the rite itself.

Quote

This has been the case since the start of this crisis. In my mind, most (many?) NO priests are invalid due to the consecrating bishops not going "by the book."

Even a "by the book" service is doubtful, because the doubts are inherent in the rite itself. As +Tissier (and others) have explained.

Quote

A few decades ago, the SSPX had a type of running list of these bishops, as well as those known to always go "by the book." So when a NO priest came to them, the whole investigation might only be a matter of asking who ordained him. As was the case with Fr. Hesse and who knows how many others.

This is a super shaky, evidence-less, and just outright assumption-filled way to decide on the matter. The sspx should be ashamed.

Stubborn · « **Reply #49 on:** November 20, 2024, 08:55:48 AM »

Quote from: SimpleMan on November 20, 2024, 07:24:37 AM

Just out of curiosity, what would be an example of an NO ordination not being done "by the book"?

I have no idea, but can imagine a NO bishop skipping parts.

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition (Read 24903 times)

Stubborn

Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition

SimpleMan

Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition

SimpleMan

Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition

Pax Vobis

Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition

Stubborn

Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition