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Author Topic: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition  (Read 24873 times)

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Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
« on: November 18, 2024, 10:09:02 AM »
[DISCLAIMER: I am not trying to induce doubt into anyone's mind - if you are someone who is easily affected by those things - please don't read - for me this is a purely objective question].

During these trying times, without recourse to the Holy Office, what principles do you use to determine how/why to place your trust in a particular priest/bishop to determine the validity of previously conferred Sacraments?

This of course, not only pertains to Baptism/Confirmation/Marriages for laypeople but, also Baptism/Confirmation for priests not born/raised in Tradition.

For those not coming from the Novus Ordo or other sects and have never thought about it, I suppose this would only "affect" you if your priest had come from there because it could call into question his baptismal character thereby rendering his priesthood null.

Some factors to consider:

"If, however, after diligent inquiry reasonable doubt remains concerning the validity of their former Baptism, they are now to be baptized conditionally."

Taken from: Reception of Converts and Profession of Faith

See also Denzinger #1848 Pope Leo XIII the Reception of Converted Heretics [From the decree of the Holy Office, Nov. 20,1878]

Denzinger - Sources of Catholic Dogma.pdf : Denzinger - Sources of Catholic Dogma.pdf


See how Tucho [Fernandaz] mocks:

"In their January 2022 Plenary Assembly, the Cardinal and Bishop Members of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith expressed concern about the increasing number of situations in which Sacraments were being celebrated invalidly. The grave modifications that were made to the matter or form of the Sacraments, which nullified those celebrations, led to the need to track down those who were involved and repeat the Rite of Baptism or Confirmation, and a significant number of the faithful rightly expressed their distress."

Taken from:
Note Gestis Verbisque on the Validity of the Sacraments (2 February 2024)

So here Tucho, is telling everyone, it is much worse than you think (the number of cases of invalidity). He mocks Catholics by summing up that "you know we shouldn't mess with the sacraments." Of course, these problems stem from messing with the sacred rites and free-wheeling spirit of VII. IMO, In times past, anything that had such suspicion attached to it would ispo facto require conditional administration. But in these times, one places there trust in a particular priest, bishop, group, etc. What criteria do you use to place that trust? 

If you believe in explicit BOD, then laypeople would be "good" on the baptism side of things.

But this would not be the case with priests who come from outside Tradition and have doubtful baptism, because if they were never baptized, then they can't be valid priests no matter how much desire they have for the priesthood. If they aren't priests (or their priesthood is doubtful because of their doubtful baptism) then all the sacraments they confect are doubtful too. 

Perhaps you & your priest were raised in Tradition and have received all the traditional Sacraments without any doubt, then you are truly blessed and should give thanks to God many times a day for such a wonderful grace. God is good - always.

Praise be Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!




Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2024, 12:32:06 PM »
1.  Multiple, multiple Trad clerics...from all different decades (70s, 80s, 90s and present)...from all different groups (i.e. sspx, Sedevacantist, independent)...have ALL concluded that the new rites of ordination and consecration all have 'positive' doubts.

2.  Cardinals Ottaviani/Bacci both concluded that one can 'positively' doubt the new mass' consecration....even IF the priest is valid.  Thus, the new mass is doubly doubtful if said by a new rite priest.


Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2024, 01:14:22 PM »
Right on both counts - no dispute here.

What am I asking more specifically is:

What criteria do you use to put your trust in Trad clerics on the subject of doubtful baptisms i.e., their method of how they come to determine if someone's baptism is valid or not - this would include men who come to their seminaries from the Novus Ordo or other Protestant sects, and either being conditionally baptized or not. It seems to me that because we do not have recourse to the Holy Office, so it is every man for himself, based on his preference, gut-feeling, powers of deduction, etc. So, we choose to put our trust in different groups/people - what is the criteria you use to do that?

An additional factor to consider:

Say your priest was a Novus Ordo convert, or Protestant convert who was baptized in that sect but never received conditional baptism. Without having recourse to decisions from Rome, how can we be morally certain they are even baptized due to all of the fallout from the Novus Ordo fiddling with the rite of baptism and also from the general principle that many Protestant converts were conditionally baptized when entered the Church based on "reasonable doubt". No baptism = no priests. To approach doubtful Sacraments is grave matter and forbidden.

So maybe someone would answer, "I choose to align myself with the way bishop so-and-so does things because I think he is smart"., Or "I follow the principles of our organization, etc. Or maybe people never think about it and just go the Sacraments assuming their priest is validly baptized. But is such an assumption prudent during this time? That is more what I am driving at. What are your thoughts?

Maybe, like I said above - your priest is undoubtably baptized/raised in Tradition and so were you. That is a HUGE grace and then the question probably never came up to your mind.
In general there are no conditional baptisms for converts from the Novus Ordo, but in our case, the priest did perform the exorcisms that are no longer done

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2024, 01:15:21 PM »
If they aren't priests (or their priesthood is doubtful because of their doubtful baptism) then all the sacraments they confect are doubtful too.

Not quite.  Valid Holy Orders is not required to validly administer the Sacrament of Baptism.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2024, 01:32:35 PM »
But, yes, I would recommend conditional Baptism / Confirmation and then Ordination for any priest baptized in the Novus Ordo, and just Baptism / Confirmation for anyone else baptized in the NO.  I've stated that here.

Some Trad groups do an "investigation" IF you were baptized between certain years (I actually believe they have it flipped in terms of the years they focus on), whereas others assume validity.

I've never understood this ... at all.  They're so worried about some kind of "sacrilege" against the Sacrament, but that's the entire point of CONDITIONAL Sacraments, where it it was already validly administered, it's not done again.  So there's absolutely NO danger of sacrilege when it's administered conditonally.

Now, you can't just willy-nilly rebaptized everybody based on "what if my priest got the words wrong?" ... since that would just make the Church ridiculous (subjecting everyone to the same standards of proof that Bishop Kelly made up about the +Thuch bishops) and making a mockery of the Church.

But due to the prevailing attitude in the NO where "ad libbing" stuff is OK (this is a widespread mentality among them that I've run into on a regular basis), I would consider it perfectly reasonable to conditionally baptize everyone baptized in the NO.  In addition, I would supplement the conditional Baptism with the additional Traditional Rites, just as you would if someone received emergency Baptism without the solemnity.

I've never understood this IMO absurdly-over-cautious attitude about some kind of possible sacrilege against the Sacrament ... which can't happen if you use the conditional form.  I believe that it's perfectly reasonable ... and highly recommended to engage in this practice, unless you actually have positive indicators that the NO one was valid.