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Author Topic: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies  (Read 20192 times)

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Offline TKGS

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Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2021, 04:24:19 PM »
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  • My mother will possibly be Confirmed by Bp. Dolan in May. Should we be concerned about his validity as a Bishop?
    No.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #31 on: November 16, 2021, 04:30:16 PM »
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  • Not if one were a Sedevacantist.
    And yet it is still divisive among sedevacantists regardless of your assertion. As the SSPV and CMRI perform non-una cuм Masses but do not teach that one is committing a mortal sin assisting at an una cuм Mass; whereas Dolan and co. do, based upon Fr. Cekada's infamous "Grain of incense" argument drawn from Bp. des Lauriers, which they seem to teach as de Fide.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #32 on: November 16, 2021, 04:40:02 PM »
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  • And yet it is still divisive among sedevacantists regardless of your assertion. As the SSPV and CMRI perform non-una cuм Masses but do not teach that one is committing a mortal sin assisting at an una cuм Mass; whereas Dolan and co. do, based upon Fr. Cekada's infamous "Grain of incense" argument drawn from Bp. des Lauriers, which they seem to teach as de Fide.


    Ah, yes, I see the "divisive"' as applied.

    But not the "baseless" or "diabolical." How could one pray "una cuм" with a "pope" who is an impostor, and not a pope? It would seem to me to be rather "baseless" or "diabolical" to say Mass "una cuм" with such an impostor.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #33 on: November 16, 2021, 04:41:59 PM »
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  • Yes. What a mess!

    Are there any Sede groups or independent priests that offer Mass una cuм "pope" Francis? Just curious. That would also be a contradiction . . . don't tell me there are some. :facepalm:

    As far as I know, no.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #34 on: November 16, 2021, 04:43:54 PM »
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  • As far as I know, no.

    Thanks. 

    It's nice to hear or see some consistency sometime. :laugh1:
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #35 on: November 16, 2021, 04:46:36 PM »
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  • Ah, yes, I see the "divisive"' as applied.

    But not the "baseless" or "diabolical." How could one pray "una cuм" with a "pope" who is an impostor, and not a pope? It would seem to me to be rather "baseless" or "diabolical" to say Mass "una cuм" with such an impostor.

    This is where I see a distinction between someone assisting at such a mass who believes the heretic is actually pope and someone who does not.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #36 on: November 16, 2021, 06:31:18 PM »
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  • Ah, yes, I see the "divisive"' as applied.

    But not the "baseless" or "diabolical." How could one pray "una cuм" with a "pope" who is an impostor, and not a pope? It would seem to me to be rather "baseless" or "diabolical" to say Mass "una cuм" with such an impostor.

    "Baseless" in the sense that it is a novel theory that has no concrete backing in a Council or pronouncement of a Pope or even a precedent in Church history outside of the Western schism, which didn't even touch the issue of saying Mass una cuм a Papal impostor. Many Masses were said una cuм the Papal claimants, and nowhere did any theologian come out and question the moral nature of assisting at those Masses. It is a novel theory drummed up in the 1980s.

    "Diabolic" in that it has further fragmented the traditionalist movement into several camps rather than allow them to unify and counter the Novus Ordo anti-Church. It reeks of the influence of Satan for the purpose of infighting and obfuscation of the laity.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Same

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #37 on: November 17, 2021, 06:04:50 AM »
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  • The enemy has been extensively identified, the argument is over their removal.
    Of course Christian moral and spiritual warfare strategy to convert or expel self identified heretics can differ.
    People forget that this is a war.
    In a spiritual sense they both could be right.  The laity would prefer differences of opinions to be discussed privately.



    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #38 on: November 17, 2021, 06:16:28 AM »
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  • "Baseless" in the sense that it is a novel theory that has no concrete backing in a Council or pronouncement of a Pope or even a precedent in Church history outside of the Western schism, which didn't even touch the issue of saying Mass una cuм a Papal impostor. Many Masses were said una cuм the Papal claimants, and nowhere did any theologian come out and question the moral nature of assisting at those Masses. It is a novel theory drummed up in the 1980s.

    "Diabolic" in that it has further fragmented the traditionalist movement into several camps rather than allow them to unify and counter the Novus Ordo anti-Church. It reeks of the influence of Satan for the purpose of infighting and obfuscation of the laity.

    You say, " [m]any Masses were said una cuм the Papal claimants, and nowhere did any theologian come out and question the moral nature of assisting at those Masses." Are you saying that the people that assisted at those Masses believed the "pope" mentioned in the "una cuм" was an anti-pope? I think not. So it's a different situation.

    Yes, I agree with you regarding the lack of a precedent. Which would indicate why there is "no concrete backing" in the historical record or even theological speculation . . . it's unprecedented, like the crisis we're witnessing.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #39 on: November 17, 2021, 09:00:40 AM »
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  • You say, " [m]any Masses were said una cuм the Papal claimants, and nowhere did any theologian come out and question the moral nature of assisting at those Masses." Are you saying that the people that assisted at those Masses believed the "pope" mentioned in the "una cuм" was an anti-pope? I think not. So it's a different situation.

    Yes, I agree with you regarding the lack of a precedent. Which would indicate why there is "no concrete backing" in the historical record or even theological speculation . . . it's unprecedented, like the crisis we're witnessing.

    Yeah, no kidding it is a different situation, I'm not unaware of that.

    Now, since it is unprecedented, how is it that some who hold the non una cuм position can impose sin upon those who do not without a pronouncement of the Church? They cannot. It resides purely in the realm of theological opinion until the Church declares otherwise. Last I checked, neither +Sanborn, nor +Dolan, nor +Cekada, nor Novus Ordo Watch, possess the authority to do so.

    Just like R&R, or sedeprivatonism, or sedevacantism; all of these being theological opinions on how to address this Crisis. Which is why not only the schismatic attitude ALL of us trads have towards EACH OTHER needs to stop but why pithy, worthless feuds like the one now starting between +Sanborn and +Dolan need to stop.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #40 on: November 17, 2021, 10:00:05 AM »
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  • Yeah, no kidding it is a different situation, I'm not unaware of that.

    Now, since it is unprecedented, how is it that some who hold the non una cuм position can impose sin upon those who do not without a pronouncement of the Church? They cannot. It resides purely in the realm of theological opinion until the Church declares otherwise. Last I checked, neither +Sanborn, nor +Dolan, nor +Cekada, nor Novus Ordo Watch, possess the authority to do so.

    Just like R&R, or sedeprivatonism, or sedevacantism; all of these being theological opinions on how to address this Crisis. Which is why not only the schismatic attitude ALL of us trads have towards EACH OTHER needs to stop but why pithy, worthless feuds like the one now starting between +Sanborn and +Dolan need to stop.

    I don't disagree with you at all on the above.

    My issue was with your statement, "non-una cuм
    is also a baseless, divisive and diabolic theory that should have no support among Catholics."

    The non-una cuм position, in itself, is not so - not even divisive, in se. It only becomes so if you "impose sin upon those" who do not share your view. With that - and that apparently was all you meant, correct? - we are in agreement.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #41 on: November 17, 2021, 10:12:57 AM »
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  • I don't disagree with you at all on the above.

    My issue was with your statement, "non-una cuм
    is also a baseless, divisive and diabolic theory that should have no support among Catholics."

    The non-una cuм position, in itself, is not so - not even divisive, in se. It only becomes so if you "impose sin upon those" who do not share your view. With that - and that apparently was all you meant, correct? - we are in agreement.

    Precisely. I have stated before I personally have no problem with non una cuм Masses, as holding sedeprivationism, I obviously agree with them since there is no legitimate Pope
    But, it is the presumption that those otherwise legitimate priests who do not say non una cuм Masses, as well as laity who attend these regardless of their position on the Pope, are committing a mortal sin by doing so is a baseless, divisive and diabolic theory that should have no support among Catholics.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #42 on: November 17, 2021, 10:16:45 AM »
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  • Some might find this interesting - it's relevant to the discussion certainly. It's from an old John Daly article, which used to be at the link below, which is not working apparently, at least not for me:



    Quote
    15. St Hypathius and Nestorius

    Another historical example has been invoked in favour of the position of those who condemn all misguided traditionalists as heretics or schismatics: the case of St Hypathius. This Bythinian monk insisted on omitting the name of the heretic Nestorius from the diptychs from the moment when he began to preach his heresy, denying the unity of person in Our Divine Lord. His ordinary, Eulalius, while refusing the heresy of Nestorius, rebuked the holy monk Hypathius for withdrawing from communion with their Nestorius, who was their patriarch, before the judgment of a council. Hypathius replied: "...I cannot insert his name in the Canon of the Mass because a heresiarch is not worthy of the title of pastor in the Church; do what you will with me, I am ready to suffer anything, and nothing will make me change my behaviour." (Petits Bollandistes, 17th June)

    But in fact this case merely illustrates what all sedevacantists are agreed upon: given a case in which one clearly sees, in all prudence, that one is dealing with a heretic, one must at once withdraw from communion with him. That is of course the correct position to hold with regard to Karol Wojtyla and many others in our days.

    But when some sedevacantists withdraw from communion with other sedevacantists on the grounds that the latter remain in communion not with Karol Wojtyla but with certain traditional clergy or laity that the first group consider heretics...they are quite mistaken to quote the case of St Hypathius in their favour. For Hypathius, though he withdrew from communion with Nestorius, clearly did not withdraw from communion with Eulalius, who, though orthodox, mistakenly thought it right to remain provisionally in communion with Nestorius until the Church should have formally pronounced him a heretic.



    http://sedevacantist.com/heresyhistory.html

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #43 on: November 17, 2021, 10:28:02 AM »
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  • Quote
    The non-una cuм position, in itself, is not so - not even divisive, in se. It only becomes so if you "impose sin upon those" who do not share your view. With that - and that apparently was all you meant, correct? - we are in agreement.
    This is a dumb argument.  Why did people like Fr Cekada even bring up the idea, if sin isn't involved?  Those sedes who believe that they can only attend "non una cuм" masses ABSOLUTELY think sin is involved.  I've seen plenty of them avoid mass over it (or they go to church, and leave after the sanctus (i.e. they miss mass).  To say sin isn't involved is just plain false.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
    « Reply #44 on: November 17, 2021, 02:17:12 PM »
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  • One should read Bishop Sanborns thesis of Des Lauriers, of 1979 about the "potential popes".  Thesisis the definition of sedeprivationism.  the thesis is not in my opinion, to be considered.  Bishop Sanborn knows that Bishop Dolan is sedevacantist. Both are different liked and night, because sedevacantist are of the Lineage of Carmona.  

    So, read the thesis and you will see that they think, potential popes IF they give up modernism for catholicism will make them valid pope. Or wait for a tribunal to take place, fat chance!  Now, I did not read any mention of "confession".  Hm?