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Author Topic: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies  (Read 34401 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
« Reply #155 on: January 11, 2022, 11:54:10 AM »
So, in essence, they're disregarding intent entirely because the form was only slightly off? That's stupid.

Well, if the form were radically defective, the intent cannot supply for it.  So, for example, if some priest used grape juice instead of wine (even by mistake) for Mass, it would not be valid.  But the form is not in fact radically defective.  As I said, the Eastern Rite uses one hand for ordination, and the Roman Rite did as well ... which clearly indicates that two hands is not essential for the validity of ordination to the priesthood.

Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
« Reply #156 on: January 11, 2022, 12:15:46 PM »
During the 1976 ordination to the priesthood by Archbishop Lefebvre, a class which included both Daniel Dolan and Richard Williamson, Archbishop Lefebvre evidently only laid his right hand on the heads of the ordinands, contrary to the rubric of the Pontificale Romanum, which indicates that the bishop lay both his hands on the ordinand's head, perhaps due to his having the day before ordained deacons (where the rite calls for one hand).  In any case, the argument was made that this is invalid.  So many of the SSPV consider Fr. Dolan not to be a valid priest and therefore not a valid bishop either.  I know that the SSPV conditionally confirms people who had been confirmed by Bishop Williamson.

Now, the Eastern Rite has always performed ordination to the priesthood with one hand, the Roman Rite also did for a couple centuries, but then switched to two hands, and I believe Father Cekada found some ruling on the matter from a Vatican office which indicates that this would in fact be valid.
http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/Ord1-Hand.pdf

RIP, FATHER Cekada.


Offline Yeti

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Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
« Reply #157 on: January 11, 2022, 01:47:53 PM »
During the 1976 ordination to the priesthood by Archbishop Lefebvre, a class which included both Daniel Dolan and Richard Williamson, Archbishop Lefebvre evidently only laid his right hand on the heads of the ordinands,


I'm pretty doubtful this even happened. If you search the internet, you will not find any article or public statement by any priest who claims to have been there at this ceremony and to have seen this error with his own eyes. There must have been numerous priests there, and no one has ever written anything denouncing this problem or even pointing out its existence? Really?

Moreover, I've spoken to a lot of old guard SSPX and former SSPX priests (mostly sedevacantists) who were there at that ceremony, and none of them seem to know who saw this error or claims it took place. No priest has ever claimed, even privately as far as I know, to have seen this with his own eyes. No one can tell you, "Oh yeah, Fr. Joe Smith saw Abp. Lefebvre use only one hand in that ceremony." All you get is, "Well, I don't know, the stories say that there was only one hand used."

Again, so many priests watching such an important ceremony, and not one of them claims to have seen Abp. Lefebvre impose only one hand.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
« Reply #158 on: January 11, 2022, 01:52:09 PM »

I'm pretty doubtful this even happened. If you search the internet, you will not find any article or public statement by any priest who claims to have been there at this ceremony and to have seen this error with his own eyes. There must have been numerous priests there, and no one has ever written anything denouncing this problem or even pointing out its existence? Really?

SSPV claim that they have witnesses, someone who was the MC for that ceremony, and, if I recall, Bishop Dolan doesn't deny the fact of the one hand.  This was known from early on evidently, but that didn't stop Father Kelly and the others from with with Father Dolan.

Offline Yeti

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Re: Dolan v. Sanborn - Bp. Sanborn replies
« Reply #159 on: January 11, 2022, 01:54:04 PM »
SSPV claim that they have witnesses, someone who was the MC for that ceremony, and, if I recall, Bishop Dolan doesn't deny the fact of the one hand.  This was known from early on evidently, but that didn't stop Father Kelly and the others from with with Father Dolan.
Unfortunately the priest who was MC for that ceremony subsequently left the priesthood and is now living in open sodomy. Not the greatest source of proof. And Bp. Dolan doesn't know whether it happened or not. I've asked him. I think either his eyes were closed or he was looking down or something.