Author Topic: Dogmatic Sedevacantism (Read 14919 times)

MyrnaM · « **Reply #120 on:** December 26, 2012, 08:57:17 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: MyrnaM
Quote
They name Pivuranas and everyone else you can think of. All heretics, all not Catholics, all liars, and all going to Hell.

Anyone who would dare to say that those who follow Bishop Pivuranas or another Sedevacantist group are going to Hell also calls Our Blessed Mother a liar, because most Sedevacantist if not all who have died, died wearing the brown scapular.

What was that promise Our Lady gave to those who die wearing the brown scapular?

Something for those who believe the novus ordo is still valid to consider about the brown scapular and is it preached anymore?

Sometime the answer is so simple.

Myrna, I think you'd be suprised at the variety of people out there. There are Novus Ordo Catholics who still very much want to be "Catholic", so they won't shy away from things like the Rosary, frequent Mass, confession, the Brown Scapular, etc.Yes, many other Novus Ordo Catholics are just there because of habit, family, custom, etc.

But the first category of people (those of good will) become more rare all the time, as things continue to go downhill. Yet you must believe me that they still exist.

Catholics are "awakening" to discover Tradition practically every day. And many of them become better (Traditional) Catholics than many 2nd or 3rd generation trads. Don't forget that either.

It's Our Lord raising up children to Abraham from the very stones. He doesn't need unfaithful Trads.

I agree with you Matthew, and I was one of those. My point is with people who insist that sedevacantist are in schism. The sedevacantist I know are living theiir Catholic Faith, and we still have a Head, its Jesus Christ. We are not in schism, heading for Hell as Diamonds or anyone else says, and above all we do not judge the souls of the novus ordo people who are still searching for the Truth.

Nishant · « **Reply #121 on:** December 26, 2012, 11:42:51 AM »

The gift of final perseverance (that one will be in the state of grace at the time of one's death) graciously promised by Our Lady for numerous pious practices, among them the wearing of the Brown Scapular, and other exceptional promises for similar devotions (like the 15 promises of the Rosary, the 7 promises for the Seven Dolors' devotion, the 12 promises of the Sacred Heart for the Nine First Fridays) must be understood according to the mind of the Church - not as if wearing a Scapular provides one a license to engage in sin or grounds for presumption, as some would treat it, but rather that if we honor her in her chosen way, Our Lady will undoubtedly and efficaciously obtain for us the graces to do all we need to do to remain faithful according to our state of life.

Saints to whom final perseverance was explicitly promised only abounded and increased in good works and fasts, in prayers and penances as a result. It was not for nothing that the Blessed Virgin said, "One day through the Rosary and the Scapular I will save the world". Developing a deep, ready and earnest devotion to Our Lord and Our Lady is the most important thing, and everything else is secondary to that.

conquistador1492 · « **Reply #122 on:** December 26, 2012, 08:16:28 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

Conquistador, remember what Our Lady of Mt. Carmel promised to those who wear the Brown Scapular?

Quote
"Whosoever dies enclothed in this Scapular shall not suffer eternal fire."

Not that the Brown Scapular is popular amongst Novus Ordites anyway, but a Novus Ordite who wears it faithfully and sincerely can still be saved.

A Protestant would never wear it.

A Merry Christmas to you.

Thats heresy.

Pius XII (1939-1951)

Mystici Corporis 1943

"Acutally only those who are numbered among the elect are those who profess the true faith and receive the laver of regeneration."

Those in the Vatican 2 church and those in the various protestant sects do not profess the true faith.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #123 on:** December 26, 2012, 08:24:26 PM »

You don't know what heresy is. You sound like an extremist.

conquistador1492 · « **Reply #124 on:** December 26, 2012, 08:39:19 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

You don't know what heresy is. You sound like an extremist.

:rolleyes:

lol. I'm an "extremist" because I actually hold you have to profess the catholic faith to be saved?

Are you kidding me?

I guess St. Augustine was an extremist.

St. Augustine (+430): No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church.
Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can
have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer
amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church. (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesiae plebem)

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #125 on:** December 26, 2012, 08:42:33 PM »

Quote from: conquistador1492

Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: conquistador1492
do you believe novus ordites who die wearing the brown scapular can be saved? What about protestants?

This is a silly question. What is a "novus ordite"? Catholics who die wearing the Brown Scapular are not, to my understanding, guaranteed salvation but access to the sacraments at the time of death. There are many Catholics who worship in the Novus Ordo out of ignorance. Quite a number of traditional Catholics today were among them. I doubt that there are very many people who attend Novus Ordo services wearing the Brown Scapular who are not very troubled with the Conciliar Church. They may just not know what to do.

As for Protestants, no Catholic should assume they can be saved.

Thats heresy.

Pius XII (1939-1951)

Mystici Corporis 1943

"Acutally only those who are numbered among the elect are those who profess the true faith and receive the laver of regeneration."

Those in the Vatican 2 church and those in the various protestant sects do not profess the true faith.

Um, don't you realize that the promise of the Brown Scapular necessarily entails the profession and practice of the Catholic faith? If you condemn as heretics everyone who is [your words] "in the Vatican 2 church," then you are arrogating to yourself judicial authority and casuistic competence that you obviously lack. Moreover, by this very act you are committing schism, as you are breaking communion with other Catholics.

Those Catholics who are devoted to Our Lady and hence wear her Brown Scapular and recite devoutly her Holy Rosary, and incidentally and materially adhere to the Johannine-Pauline constructs in good faith, whilst eschewing heresy and immorality (which is inexorably inherent in the profession and practice of the faith and in the cultivation of the interior life, both of which presuppose the industrious fulfillment of their duties of state), do indeed live the life of grace, which is the prelude for the beatific vision; and they shall obtain the gift of final perseverance by the merits of Our Lord Jesus, through the maternal patronage of the same illustrious Virgin Mother of God and by their cooperation with grace in the life of prayer that shall ever detach them from self and all created things and make them all the more given over to the influence of the operation of the theological virtues and the Gifts of the Holy Ghost.

Maybe you should be more focused on the interior life than on cursory reading and selective citation of texts that justify your extremist mentality.

conquistador1492 · « **Reply #126 on:** December 26, 2012, 09:01:09 PM »

Quote from: Hobbledehoy

Quote from: conquistador1492
Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: conquistador1492
do you believe novus ordites who die wearing the brown scapular can be saved? What about protestants?

This is a silly question. What is a "novus ordite"? Catholics who die wearing the Brown Scapular are not, to my understanding, guaranteed salvation but access to the sacraments at the time of death. There are many Catholics who worship in the Novus Ordo out of ignorance. Quite a number of traditional Catholics today were among them. I doubt that there are very many people who attend Novus Ordo services wearing the Brown Scapular who are not very troubled with the Conciliar Church. They may just not know what to do.

As for Protestants, no Catholic should assume they can be saved.

Thats heresy.

Pius XII (1939-1951)

Mystici Corporis 1943

"Acutally only those who are numbered among the elect are those who profess the true faith and receive the laver of regeneration."

Those in the Vatican 2 church and those in the various protestant sects do not profess the true faith.

Um, don't you realize that the promise of the Brown Scapular necessarily entails the profession and practice of the Catholic faith? If you condemn as heretics everyone who is [your words] "in the Vatican 2 church," then you are arrogating to yourself judicial authority and casuistic competence that you obviously lack. Moreover, by this very act you are committing schism, as you are breaking communion with other Catholics.

Those Catholics who are devoted to Our Lady and hence wear her Brown Scapular and recite devoutly her Holy Rosary, and incidentally and materially adhere to the Johannine-Pauline constructs in good faith, whilst eschewing heresy and immorality (which is inexorably inherent in the profession and practice of the faith and in the cultivation of the interior life, both of which presuppose the industrious fulfillment of their duties of state), do indeed live the life of grace, which is the prelude for the beatific vision; and they shall obtain the gift of final perseverance by the merits of Our Lord Jesus, through the maternal patronage of the same illustrious Virgin Mother of God and by their cooperation with grace in the life of prayer that shall ever detach them from self and all created things and make them all the more given over to the influence of the operation of the theological virtues and the Gifts of the Holy Ghost.

Maybe you should be more focused on the interior life than on cursory reading and selective citation of texts that justify your extremist mentality.

Oh, I see....I dont have the "judicial authority" and "csuitic competence" to denounce the Vatican 2 church, but Marcel Lefebvre and Mark Pivarunas does? That makes sense.

You said :
"Moreover, by this very act you are committing schism, as you are breaking communion with other Catholics."

Well you would have to conclude logically using your very same theolgy, that Marcel Lefebvre was committing schism when he physically left the Vatican 2 church and consecrated his own bishops with the disaproval of JP2.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #127 on:** December 26, 2012, 09:11:30 PM »

Quote from: conquistador

Oh, I see....I dont have the "judicial authority" and "csuitic competence" to denounce the Vatican 2 church, but Marcel Lefebvre and Mark Pivarunas does? That makes sense.

That's ARCHBISHOP Lefebvre to you. The fact that you refuse to give him and Bishop Pivarunas their proper titles makes it appear that you think they weren't validly ordained. Is that what you think?

I know practically nothing about Bishop Pivarunas' ordination, so I will let someone else comment on that. As for the Archbishop's, I assume you think he wasn't validly ordained because he was supposedly ordained by a Freemason, correct?

First of all, it has never been proven that Cardinal Leinart was a Freemason. And even if he was, to claim that he couldn't validly ordain someone would contradict what was taught by Pope Leo XIII and St. Thomas Aquinas:

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“Concerning the mind or intention, inasmuch as it is in itself something internal, the Church does not pass judgment; but in so far as it is externally manifested, she is bound to judge of it. Now, if in order to effect and confer a Sacrament a person has seriously and correctly used the due matter and form, he is for that very reason presumed to have intended to do what the Church does. It is on this principle that the doctrine is solidly founded which holds as a true Sacrament that which is conferred by the ministry of a heretic or of a non-baptized person, as long as it is conferred in the Catholic rite.“ - Pope Leo XIII

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In the words uttered by (the minister), the intention of the Church is expressed; and this suffices for the validity of the sacrament,EXCEPT THE CONTRARY BE EXPRESSED EXTERIORLY on the part of the minister”. - St. Thomas Aquinas

In other words, as long as the Catholic Bishop, whether he be Catholic or a heretic, observes externally the rite perscribed for the sacrament, according to Church teaching, he must be presumed to have the right intention and thus, the sacrament must be presumed to be valid.

I think people should take the words of a Pope and the words of the Common Doctor of the Catholic Church over an armchair theologian such as yourself.

Quote

Well you have to conclude logically that Marcel Lefebvre was committing schism when he physically left the Vatican 2 church and consecrated his own bishops with the disaproval of JP2.

It is the Vatican II church that is schismatic.

Dogmatic sedevacantists like you are the reason why so many people are turned off by sedevacantists. If it weren't for Archbishop Lefebvre you wouldn't have any TLMs to attend except the CMRI and Indult Masses.

conquistador1492 · « **Reply #128 on:** December 26, 2012, 09:14:36 PM »

[/quote]

It is the Vatican II church that is schismatic.

Dogmatic sedevacantists like you are the reason why so many people are turned off by sedevacantists. If it weren't for Archbishop Lefebvre you wouldn't have any TLMs to attend except the CMRI and Indult Masses. [/quote]

Who says where I go to a TLM? Or if I even a attend a TLM to begin with?

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #129 on:** December 26, 2012, 09:15:43 PM »

Convenient that you ignore the quotes from Pope Leo XIII and St. Thomas Aquinas.

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #130 on:** December 26, 2012, 09:19:01 PM »

Quote from: conquistador1492

Oh, I see....I dont have the "judicial authority" and "csuitic competence" to denounce the Vatican 2 church, but Marcel Lefebvre and Mark Pivarunas does? That makes sense.

Hey! ...or should it be "Hay!" I sense a straw man here.

I don't recall Archbishop Lefebvre or Bishop Pivarunas doing what you are doing: condemning as heretics everyone who in good faith adheres to the "the Vatican 2 church," which is what you are doing.

What these bishops have done, together with a good number of clerics and layfolk, has been to denounce modernism and lay witness to the implications consequent upon the "new economy" of the Johannine-Pauline structures.

Note that these two bishops have differing conclusions consequent upon their resistance against the modernistic mechanism of Vatican II, which should tell you that no one person has all the answers in these tumultuous times.

You seem to think that reading and citing selectively texts constitutes the competence requisite to exercise the sort of casuistry that you are endeavoring to propagate as the only "anti-V2 way."

As my parents told me when I was a kid, so I tell you: "Just keep quiet and pray."

conquistador1492 · « **Reply #131 on:** December 26, 2012, 09:20:59 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

Convenient that you ignore the quotes from Pope Leo XIII and St. Thomas Aquinas.

Convenient that you ignored my quote from St. Augustine.

St. Augustine (+430): No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church.
Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can
have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer
amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church. (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesiae plebem)

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #132 on:** December 26, 2012, 09:23:32 PM »

I don't disagree with that statement from St. Augustine, but you're applying his quote to all Catholics who don't "profess the true faith", which in your book can mean anything.

Now, are you going to respond to those quotes, or ignore them because you have no way of refuting them yet are too stubborn to admit it?

conquistador1492 · « **Reply #133 on:** December 26, 2012, 09:27:00 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

I don't disagree with that statement from St. Augustine, but you're applying his quote to all Catholics who don't "profess the true faith", which in your book can mean anything.

Now, are you going to respond to those quotes, or ignore them because you have no way of refuting them yet are too stubborn to admit it?

I will answer you, once you address the St. Augustine quote. St. Augustine says outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation. Do you agree with this? If yes, is the Vatican 2 church the Catholic Church?

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #134 on:** December 26, 2012, 09:31:38 PM »

I do agree that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. I simply don't agree with your attempt to stretch his quote to the point that all NO Catholics are heretics or are outside the Church.

Now, I await your answer to the quotes I posted.