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Author Topic: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI  (Read 7851 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
« Reply #105 on: May 18, 2025, 08:08:38 PM »
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  • Additionally, it would seem to be both the safer course for the individual involved as well as the most truly shepherd-like action for the peace of mind and sanctification of the sheep.  If they cared, about themselves and those they intend to sanctify, they'd take the appropriate action.  The fact that most (if not all) hesitate or even refuse to do so says a lot.

    Agreed ... just providing peace of soul to the faithful would alone suffice.

    Even Bishop Williamson took this angle, with a slight variation.  He said that while he himself personally believed the NO Sacraments were valid, he recognized that other intelligent people might come to a different conclusion.  So he made a distinction between subjective positive doubt vs. there being objective positive doubt if some others have reasonable grounds to consider them doubtful.  That makes all the sense in the world.  If you send the NO priests in among the faithful, you're effectively imposing your own conscience upon them, and only the Church has the authority to impose upon consciences.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #106 on: May 18, 2025, 08:17:05 PM »
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  • I rewatched this earlier today and it's absolutely filled with strawmen, gaslighting, and in fact doing exactly what they falsely accuse the other side of doing.



    When I have time, I'll dissect this dishonest piece of trash.

    Let's get this straight.  Despite their excuse, THE NUMBER ONE REASON that they assert that NO Orders are valid is in order to maintain their relationship with the Conciliars.  That's it.

    Now, they come up with other reasons for it ... but (and they misrepresent this also) they need to get this straight.  Burden of proof is 100% on them to prove there's no positive doubt.  Guess what.  They can't do it.  They (have to) admit that at the very least there were significant changes to the Rite of Episcopal Consecration.  They can ARGUE that, oh, it's valid ... but they absolutely cannot do so with the degree of authority sufficient to dispel rational positive doubt.  Only the Church can do that.  But you'll notice that THE strongest argument they have, they can't go to.  So, the strongest argument is that if a legitimate Pope promulgates Rites, they cannot be doubtful or invalid.  Period.  That would be contrary to the Church's indefectibility.  But if they say that then they'd have to admit that the Pope also cannot enganger souls in other ways, such as with bad teaching ... and so their entire R&R position would be gutted.

    Also, they laughably claim (and gaslight) that it's SVs who came up with this because they feel the need to declare anything from the "Church" (as they call it unequivocally, having dropped +Lefebvre's qualification of it as Conciliar Church) invalid or problematic.

    Hogwash.  SVs have no such "need".  We recognize the validity of NO Baptism, Confession, Confirmation (when proper matter & form are used), etc. and would certainly recognize the validity of the other NOM Sacraments ... HAD THEY NOT CHANGED THEM.  That has nothing to do with the SV position, just as the Orthodox's valid Sacraments do not somehow legitimize them.  It's exactly the opposite ... if they were honest enough to admit it, where if you hold that Montini et al. were legitimate Popes, you MUST hold that their Sacramental Rites are valid ... except, as I mentioned, they're not honest enough to admit it.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #107 on: May 18, 2025, 11:06:47 PM »
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  • Agreed ... just providing peace of soul to the faithful would alone suffice.

    Sadly, one would naturally presume that such a thing would be at the forefront of a real shepherd's mind and heart, especially given the tumultuous nature of these times.  Nope.  They apparently don't care and find it offensive that anyone even suggests such a thing.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline FourteenWords

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #108 on: June 14, 2025, 02:54:35 AM »
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  • All of the triglycerides in Ladislaus' brain from his vulture diet makes him cranky and induces hypoxia. :popcorn:
    :laugh2:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #109 on: June 14, 2025, 07:35:03 AM »
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  • :laugh2:

    So, laughing at your own jokes now between your different accounts?

    Serious, though, aren't you embarrassed about your behavior ... constantly signing up with new accounts after the forum owner banned you and told you to stop it?


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #110 on: Yesterday at 06:11:40 PM »
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  • I rewatched this earlier today and it's absolutely filled with strawmen, gaslighting, and in fact doing exactly what they falsely accuse the other side of doing.



    When I have time, I'll dissect this dishonest piece of trash.

    Let's get this straight.  Despite their excuse, THE NUMBER ONE REASON that they assert that NO Orders are valid is in order to maintain their relationship with the Conciliars.  That's it.

    Now, they come up with other reasons for it ... but (and they misrepresent this also) they need to get this straight.  Burden of proof is 100% on them to prove there's no positive doubt.  Guess what.  They can't do it.  They (have to) admit that at the very least there were significant changes to the Rite of Episcopal Consecration.  They can ARGUE that, oh, it's valid ... but they absolutely cannot do so with the degree of authority sufficient to dispel rational positive doubt.  Only the Church can do that.  But you'll notice that THE strongest argument they have, they can't go to.  So, the strongest argument is that if a legitimate Pope promulgates Rites, they cannot be doubtful or invalid.  Period.  That would be contrary to the Church's indefectibility.  But if they say that then they'd have to admit that the Pope also cannot enganger souls in other ways, such as with bad teaching ... and so their entire R&R position would be gutted.

    Also, they laughably claim (and gaslight) that it's SVs who came up with this because they feel the need to declare anything from the "Church" (as they call it unequivocally, having dropped +Lefebvre's qualification of it as Conciliar Church) invalid or problematic.

    Hogwash.  SVs have no such "need".  We recognize the validity of NO Baptism, Confession, Confirmation (when proper matter & form are used), etc. and would certainly recognize the validity of the other NOM Sacraments ... HAD THEY NOT CHANGED THEM.  That has nothing to do with the SV position, just as the Orthodox's valid Sacraments do not somehow legitimize them.  It's exactly the opposite ... if they were honest enough to admit it, where if you hold that Montini et al. were legitimate Popes, you MUST hold that their Sacramental Rites are valid ... except, as I mentioned, they're not honest enough to admit it.

    SSPX is “high” newChurch.

    Like a big Jєωιѕн Hollywood production, they have all the costumes, the stage sets, rituals and funding.

    One may comically note the SSPX’s European characteristic for being stingy and miserly in their consistent use of second-rate spokesmen to do their bidding.

    These poorly qualified peritus such as Fr. Paul Robinson, Siscoe & Salza and the above priest reflect a level of arrogance and malice towards the intellects of the TLM faithful.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline HeidtXtreme

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #111 on: Yesterday at 06:30:00 PM »
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  • I rewatched this earlier today and it's absolutely filled with strawmen, gaslighting, and in fact doing exactly what they falsely accuse the other side of doing.



    When I have time, I'll dissect this dishonest piece of trash.

    Let's get this straight.  Despite their excuse, THE NUMBER ONE REASON that they assert that NO Orders are valid is in order to maintain their relationship with the Conciliars.  That's it.

    Now, they come up with other reasons for it ... but (and they misrepresent this also) they need to get this straight.  Burden of proof is 100% on them to prove there's no positive doubt.  Guess what.  They can't do it.  They (have to) admit that at the very least there were significant changes to the Rite of Episcopal Consecration.  They can ARGUE that, oh, it's valid ... but they absolutely cannot do so with the degree of authority sufficient to dispel rational positive doubt.  Only the Church can do that.  But you'll notice that THE strongest argument they have, they can't go to.  So, the strongest argument is that if a legitimate Pope promulgates Rites, they cannot be doubtful or invalid.  Period.  That would be contrary to the Church's indefectibility.  But if they say that then they'd have to admit that the Pope also cannot enganger souls in other ways, such as with bad teaching ... and so their entire R&R position would be gutted.

    Also, they laughably claim (and gaslight) that it's SVs who came up with this because they feel the need to declare anything from the "Church" (as they call it unequivocally, having dropped +Lefebvre's qualification of it as Conciliar Church) invalid or problematic.

    Hogwash.  SVs have no such "need".  We recognize the validity of NO Baptism, Confession, Confirmation (when proper matter & form are used), etc. and would certainly recognize the validity of the other NOM Sacraments ... HAD THEY NOT CHANGED THEM.  That has nothing to do with the SV position, just as the Orthodox's valid Sacraments do not somehow legitimize them.  It's exactly the opposite ... if they were honest enough to admit it, where if you hold that Montini et al. were legitimate Popes, you MUST hold that their Sacramental Rites are valid ... except, as I mentioned, they're not honest enough to admit it.
    The New Rite of Confirmation is valid with proper form and matter?

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #112 on: Yesterday at 07:46:41 PM »
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  • The New Rite of Confirmation is valid with proper form and matter?
    The Novus Ordo form for Confirmation is valid, based upon Eastern liturgical forms -- but truncated and ugly in comparison to the traditional Roman form. And this validity is simply speaking of the form in isolation from everything else.

    The Novus Ordo matter for Confirmation is all over the place. There is the imposition of hands. However, the anointing and Chrism used for the anointing is doubtful for various reasons, including doubtfully valid bishops consecratibg the oil, use of of oils other than olive, and even cases where a priest will anoint whilst the bishop says the form. Bad. Bad. Bad.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila