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Author Topic: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI  (Read 2016 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
« Reply #90 on: May 16, 2025, 02:13:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 01:47:47 PM
    So creating and promulgating evil rites does not actually have any consequences for those who did so?  At least none in this life, or with respect to the possession/use/abuse of authority?
    Of course, it has spiritual consequences.  

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    Rome has been distributing nothing but poison for decades, to the utter destruction of the faith of billions.  How does that align with Holy Church's mission and purpose?  Seems like a rather textbook epic fail, to use modern lingo.

    And whether or not the heretic pope/bishops are fully in office, or only partially in office, won't change any of this.  Just like the question of "Did the Arians possess valid sacraments?" is an irrelevant and pointless discussion, in regards to the spiritual chaos they wrought.

    The point being, neither R&R nor Sedevacantism solves anything.  New-rome continues on.

    Traditionalism solves many things, because it forces people to pick orthodoxy vs heresy.  And this is sufficient.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #91 on: May 16, 2025, 02:21:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 01:55:58 PM
    So, there are TWO churches, but just ONE head, yes?  Bit of a monstrosity, no?

    Holy Church is sharing its legitimate head with a diabolical, illegitimate body, the very purpose of which is to destroy Her?  I guess truth is stranger than fiction after all...
    The reader is implored to believe that as it is in the spirit of Christian charity that we have been compelled to proclaim the
    Catholic Church to be the sole and exclusive instrument of salvation for men on earth, it is in the same spirit that we assert the major thesis  of this third part, viz., the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic  Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column. Hence, no one who  maintains membership within it can be saved. We say that we  speak thus with genuine charity, because true charity seeks to inform  one's neighbor what he must do for his salvation, and when he is in danger of losing it. - Who Shall Ascend?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #92 on: May 16, 2025, 02:25:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 02:08:39 PM
    You have already told me that you believe they have not suffered any consequences whatsoever, at least not in this life within the juridical sphere.

    All else -- i.e., what occurred once they died -- would be mere speculation well above our pay grade or concern.
    Agreed, that's how it goes when the pope is a criminal.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #93 on: May 16, 2025, 02:27:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 02:13:21 PM
    However, there is but ONE, single head for TWO distinct bodies, no?  The man you claim to be the acting and legitimate Sovereign Pontiff is, simultaneously, the head of BOTH the diabolical V2 anti-church AND the Holy Roman Catholic Church, yes?
    That's right, the pope is head of both, the conciliar and Catholic Church. Fr. Hesse explains this pretty plainly in one of his talks.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #94 on: May 16, 2025, 02:35:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 02:13:21 PM
    However, there is but ONE, single head for TWO distinct bodies, no?  The man you claim to be the acting and legitimate Sovereign Pontiff is, simultaneously, the head of BOTH the diabolical V2 anti-church AND the Holy Roman Catholic Church, yes?
    It should start right at the mark, just listen for a minute or so as regards one pope for two churches.

    https://youtu.be/yFfnTdlrGK4?t=4413
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #95 on: May 16, 2025, 02:38:36 PM »
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    • Here is where Fr. Hesse tells of the worst of all heresies......

    https://youtu.be/yFfnTdlrGK4?t=4244
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #96 on: May 16, 2025, 05:02:08 PM »
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    • Although I have known your stance for years, and that absolutely nothing new would be revealed, perhaps someone else can profit from seeing how self-contradictory your ideas and practice are.  Thank you for answering honestly.  Godspeed.

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    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #97 on: Yesterday at 12:19:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 16, 2025, 02:27:34 PM
    That's right, the pope is head of both, the conciliar and Catholic Church. Fr. Hesse explains this pretty plainly in one of his talks.
    Fr. Hesse also says in one of his talks that a pre-68 bishop who uses the new rite of consecration validly consecrates; and the opposite, a post-68 bishop (new rite bishop) who uses the traditional formula also validly consecrates.  I disagree with both these hypotheticals because the new rite of episcopal consecration is highly doubtful. 

    Fr. Hesse reasoned that he who bestows the higher power necessarily bestows also the lesser power.  He conjectures that a man who is not even a priest, were he to be consecrated a bishop, would necessarily receive the priesthood.  I am not buying this hypothetical scenario. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #98 on: Yesterday at 05:37:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 05:02:08 PM
    Although I have known your stance for years, and that absolutely nothing new would be revealed, perhaps someone else can profit from seeing how self-contradictory your ideas and practice are.  Thank you for answering honestly.  Godspeed.
    In fact, it's only contradictory for those who believe they are duty bound, or that in some way it's their religious obligation to judge the status of popes. But for those who accept reality, it's just simple truth, fundamental Catholicism, and not at all contradictory....and is also the safest course to take.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #99 on: Yesterday at 05:52:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: OABrownson1876 on Yesterday at 12:19:07 AM
    Fr. Hesse also says in one of his talks that a pre-68 bishop who uses the new rite of consecration validly consecrates; and the opposite, a post-68 bishop (new rite bishop) who uses the traditional formula also validly consecrates.  I disagree with both these hypotheticals because the new rite of episcopal consecration is highly doubtful. 

    Fr. Hesse reasoned that he who bestows the higher power necessarily bestows also the lesser power.  He conjectures that a man who is not even a priest, were he to be consecrated a bishop, would necessarily receive the priesthood.  I am not buying this hypothetical scenario.
    In one of his talks, he says: "...I have been ordained, unfortunately in the new rite of ordination, but thank God in Latin, everything strictly by the book and +ABL said that would be valid, +Fellay said it's valid and Fr. Franz Schmidberger who is my present superior in Austria says it's valid and +Williamson said there's no need for conditional ordination..."

    So we have +ABL, +Fellay, Fr. Schmidberger and +Williamson, none of which are idiots, all saying that the NREC and Ordinations are, or at least at that time were valid.

    I never understood that. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Gray2023

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #100 on: Yesterday at 05:59:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 16, 2025, 02:35:55 PM
    It should start right at the mark, just listen for a minute or so as regards one pope for two churches.

    https://youtu.be/yFfnTdlrGK4?t=4413
    Is their officially two churches?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #101 on: Yesterday at 06:19:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on Yesterday at 05:59:45 AM
    Is their officially two churches?
    Of course not officially. There is in reality.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #102 on: Yesterday at 09:24:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 05:52:40 AM
    In one of his talks, he says: "...I have been ordained, unfortunately in the new rite of ordination, but thank God in Latin, everything strictly by the book and +ABL said that would be valid, +Fellay said it's valid and Fr. Franz Schmidberger who is my present superior in Austria says it's valid and +Williamson said there's no need for conditional ordination..."

    So we have +ABL, +Fellay, Fr. Schmidberger and +Williamson, none of which are idiots, all saying that the NREC and Ordinations are, or at least at that time were valid.

    I never understood that.
    Yeah, Fr Hesse always said he “felt sure” his ordination was valid.  Of course, feelings are irrelevant.  And the Sspx gave in to human respect and didn’t push the issue.  Horrible leadership and unprincipled decisions.  
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #103 on: Yesterday at 11:52:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Yesterday at 09:24:55 AM
    Yeah, Fr Hesse always said he “felt sure” his ordination was valid.  Of course, feelings are irrelevant.  And the Sspx gave in to human respect and didn’t push the issue.  Horrible leadership and unprincipled decisions. 

    Yes, that's disappointing that someone who's otherwise intellectual would proceed on the basis of a "felt sure".

    There's absolutely plenty there that could be construed as positive doubt, and so there's no legitimate reason whatsoever not to conditionally ordain ... other than that it's being done for political reasons, because, well, we can't get the Conciliars upset with us and have our questions about their Orders ruin our chances for regularization.  They overplay (on purpose) this idea that you "can't" conditionally administer Sacraments unless you have positive doubt and then artificially raise the bar for what suffices to create positive doubt.  It's all very dishonest, and if they're wrong, their eternal salvation could be on the line, especially if this kind of dishonesty factored into their "decision".

    There's no risk of sacrilege whatsoever in conditional administration of the Sacraments, since that's what the CONDITIONAL form is, where if it had already been validly administered, there's no risk of a repetition of the Sacrament.  Outside of that, there would be a risk of sacrilege if some bishop or priest just went around willy-nilly administering the Sacraments to anyone with a pulse ... but this is clearly NOT that type of situation.  We have a bunch of Modernists who have infiltrated the Church and have clearly CHANGED and tampered with the Sacramental Rites.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #104 on: Today at 10:48:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Yesterday at 11:52:00 AM
    There's no risk of sacrilege whatsoever in conditional administration of the Sacraments, since that's what the CONDITIONAL form is, where if it had already been validly administered, there's no risk of a repetition of the Sacrament.

    Additionally, it would seem to be both the safer course for the individual involved as well as the most truly shepherd-like action for the peace of mind and sanctification of the sheep.  If they cared, about themselves and those they intend to sanctify, they'd take the appropriate action.  The fact that most (if not all) hesitate or even refuse to do so says a lot.
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    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."
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