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Author Topic: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI  (Read 2192 times)

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Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2025, 01:25:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 16, 2025, 10:57:55 AM
    What matters is, the Church *explicitly* instructs us that we are not permitted to judge the status of popes - so there is no need to judge his status, no reason whatsoever. How can I say that? Easy, it's because the Church told us not to do that, that's all the reason we need. 

    Perhaps St. Robert Bellarmine (and others) simply didn't get the memo...

    Clearly -- in your opinion -- we are, in fact, permitted (maybe even encouraged?) to judge the orthodoxy/status/acceptability of duly promulgated liturgies.  Is this the case?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #76 on: May 16, 2025, 01:32:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 01:12:33 PM
    So, the NOM -- which was duly promulgated by an authority the legitimacy of which you assert cannot be questioned -- can, in its entirety, be questioned/judged/rejected?

    Please tell me you can see the blatant, colossal contradiction involved.
    "Condemned" is the correct adjective.

    As I said, "...all one need do is look at the NOM for what it is and they will see it for what it is, a sacrilege."

    I have quoted Fr. Wathen saying: "We can judge for our own sake that a heresy has been publicly pronounced, that is not questionable, that’s just a matter of observing what has been said, and we can judge that matter as easily as we can judge the pronouncements of a protestant minister. I mean, if a protestant minster says something that is contrary to the faith, it’s not crime or anything for us to say, “That’s heresy”. It does not matter who says it, if it’s contrary to the faith, its heresy."

    IOW, a sacrilegious NOM is a sacrilegious NOM, no matter who promulgated it.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #77 on: May 16, 2025, 01:34:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 01:19:32 PM
    Upon whose authority have you rejected it/them?  Your own?

    The men you say are absolutely indisputable Pontiffs (and thus the living guardian and expositor of the Faith) have stated otherwise, both in word and deed.  They have done so, without equivocation or variance, since 1969.  Upon what grounds do you contradict their teaching and practice?
    The Church's authority.

    Their teaching and practice are contrary to what the Church has always taught.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #78 on: May 16, 2025, 01:35:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 16, 2025, 01:32:50 PM
    IOW, a sacrilegious NOM is a sacrilegious NOM, no matter who promulgated it.

    So, you maintain that legitimate authority can promulgate sacrilegious rites?  Holy Mother Church can, in fact, give poison to Her own children?  
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #79 on: May 16, 2025, 01:37:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 01:25:41 PM
    Perhaps St. Robert Bellarmine (and others) simply didn't get the memo...

    Clearly -- in your opinion -- we are, in fact, permitted (maybe even encouraged?) to judge the orthodoxy/status/acceptability of duly promulgated liturgies.  Is this the case?
    St. Robert's speculations aside, no, we have no authority "to judge the orthodoxy/status/acceptability of duly promulgated liturgies." What we are bound to is the law of Quo Primum and the traditions of the Church.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #80 on: May 16, 2025, 01:42:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 01:35:54 PM
    So, you maintain that legitimate authority can promulgate sacrilegious rites?  Holy Mother Church can, in fact, give poison to Her own children? 
    No, I maintain the pope can create a new sacrilegious religion and rite - because that's what he / they did.

    Holy Mother the Church is not the pope and cannot, did not, and will never give poison to Her own children.
     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #81 on: May 16, 2025, 01:42:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 16, 2025, 01:34:57 PM
    The Church's authority.

    Their teaching and practice are contrary to what the Church has always taught.

    Says you.  I don't disagree.

    However, you are also claiming that these men have legitimately possessed the Keys of St. Peter, the divinely-instituted power to teach, rule and sanctify the sheep.  What kind of protection is the Holy Ghost providing under such circuмstances?  If what has happened these last few decades can take place under the guidance and agency of legitimate authority, protected by the Holy Ghost at that, what was/is the purpose of having a church at all, ever?
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #82 on: May 16, 2025, 01:47:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 16, 2025, 01:42:05 PM
    No, I maintain the pope can create a new sacrilegious religion and rite - because that's what he / they did.

    Holy Mother the Church is not the pope and cannot, did not, and will never give poison to Her own children.

    So creating and promulgating evil rites does not actually have any consequences for those who did so?  At least none in this life, or with respect to the possession/use/abuse of authority?

    Rome has been distributing nothing but poison for decades, to the utter destruction of the faith of billions.  How does that align with Holy Church's mission and purpose?  Seems like a rather textbook epic fail, to use modern lingo.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #83 on: May 16, 2025, 01:50:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 01:42:32 PM
    Says you.  I don't disagree.

    However, you are also claiming that these men have legitimately possessed the Keys of St. Peter, the divinely-instituted power to teach, rule and sanctify the sheep.  What kind of protection is the Holy Ghost providing under such circuмstances?  If what has happened these last few decades can take place under the guidance and agency of legitimate authority, protected by the Holy Ghost at that, what was/is the purpose of having a church at all, ever?
    The protection of the Holy Ghost obviously was, as far as we know, non-existent in the making/implementing of the new religion and it's sacrilegious mass - except perhaps in stopping it from being worse than it was. 

    We need the Church for salvation, and we know it will remain till the end of time. The V2 church ain't it. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #84 on: May 16, 2025, 01:55:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 01:35:54 PM
    So, you maintain that legitimate authority can promulgate sacrilegious rites?  Holy Mother Church can, in fact, give poison to Her own children? 
    That's irrelevant to the discussion.  What was promulgated (i.e. theory) is not what is used (i.e. practiced).  It's very convoluted.  Please stop sidetracking the discussion of 'una cuм'.

    Secondly, I reject the notion that the new mass was ever/is an obligation.  So it's promulgation was/is optional.  If something is allowed to be ignored, then it was not promulgated with full authority.  Ergo, it is not a true Roman rite (both per Quo Primum and per Benedict's 2005 motu).  
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #85 on: May 16, 2025, 01:55:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 16, 2025, 01:50:04 PM
    We need the Church for salvation, and we know it will remain till the end of time. The V2 church ain't it.

    So, there are TWO churches, but just ONE head, yes?  Bit of a monstrosity, no?

    Holy Church is sharing its legitimate head with a diabolical, illegitimate body, the very purpose of which is to destroy Her?  I guess truth is stranger than fiction after all...
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #86 on: May 16, 2025, 01:58:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 16, 2025, 01:47:47 PM
    So creating and promulgating evil rites does not actually have any consequences for those who did so?  At least none in this life, or with respect to the possession/use/abuse of authority?
    You tell me - what consequences have they suffered and by whom? 

    Quote
    Rome has been distributing nothing but poison for decades, to the utter destruction of the faith of billions.  How does that align with Holy Church's mission and purpose?  Seems like a rather textbook epic fail, to use modern lingo.
    Rome has lost the faith, the conciliar religion is not the Catholic religion. Meanwhile, those faithful still know the Church is still here to feed us the Mass and sacraments. Personally, I believe the prophesy if Jeremiah is telling of these times.....

    23:1 Woe to the pastors, that destroy and tear the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord  2 Therefore thus saith the Lord the God of Israel to the pastors that feed my people: You have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold I will visit upon you for the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.  3 And I will gather together the remnant of my flock, out of all the lands into which I have cast them out: and I will make them return to their own fields, and they shall increase and be multiplied.  4 And I will set up pastors over them, and they shall feed them: they shall fear no more, and they shall not be dismayed: and none shall be wanting of their number, saith the Lord.


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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #87 on: May 16, 2025, 01:59:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 16, 2025, 01:55:41 PM
    That's irrelevant to the discussion.  What was promulgated (i.e. theory) is not what is used (i.e. practiced).  It's very convoluted.  Please stop sidetracking the discussion of 'una cuм'.

    This thread is not explicitly about the 'una cuм' issue.  My line of questioning is as relevant as any other to this oft-repeated, largely-fruitless discussion.  Kindly pound sand.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #88 on: May 16, 2025, 02:08:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 16, 2025, 01:58:41 PM
    You tell me - what consequences have they suffered and by whom?

    You have already told me that you believe they have not suffered any consequences whatsoever, at least not in this life within the juridical sphere.

    All else -- i.e., what occurred once they died -- would be mere speculation well above our pay grade or concern.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Dogmatic Sedevacantism on CI
    « Reply #89 on: May 16, 2025, 02:13:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 16, 2025, 01:58:41 PM
    Rome has lost the faith, the conciliar religion is not the Catholic religion.

    However, there is but ONE, single head for TWO distinct bodies, no?  The man you claim to be the acting and legitimate Sovereign Pontiff is, simultaneously, the head of BOTH the diabolical V2 anti-church AND the Holy Roman Catholic Church, yes?
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