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Author Topic: Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"  (Read 8803 times)

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Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
« on: October 08, 2013, 09:35:52 PM »
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  • The First Vatican Council

    Chapter 2. On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs

    That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time [45] .

    For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the catholic church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the saviour and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the holy Roman see, which he founded and consecrated with his blood
    [46] .

    Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received [47] .

    For this reason it has always been necessary for every church--that is to say the faithful throughout the world--to be in agreement with the Roman church because of its more effective leadership. In consequence of being joined, as members to head, with that see, from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body [48] .

    Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy:let him be anathema.
    [/color]
    [/u]
     
    Whoever succeeds to the Chair of Peter obtains the Primacy of Peter over the whole Church. Hence he is a true Roman Pontiff. (Dogma).

    Not: Whoever I believe succeeds to the Chair obtains the primacy.

    Nor is it: Whoever succeeds to the chair does not obtain the primacy.


    "The Dogma states that the Pontiff of Rome at any time is, in fact, the holder of the Primacy." Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ott) Pg. 283


    Offline Cantarella

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #1 on: October 08, 2013, 10:10:51 PM »
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  • I appreciate your dogmatic inputs, Ad Jesum Per Mariam. However, I think that not matter what infallible proof you give to the sedevacantists, they just want to persist in their error. Since everything is a possibility in the sedevacantist world because they have an invisible Church with no visible authority, all arguments fall into deaf ears.

    I am not really hostile to the sedevacantists, though. I understand their reasoning and I can even sympathize with it. However, I think that stating that Pope Francis is not the legitimate Supreme Pontiff and that the Chair of Blessed Peter has been vacant for half a century, is going way too far. It crosses the line and opens a dangerous unsolvable pandora box.

    I don't doubt that the sedevancantists do have indeed the good intention of preserving the Catholic Faith in the midst of this modernist crisis. They would never want to be separated from the Church Christ founded but I think they are in error. I would not want for the Traditional Catholic movement fall into this error because it would eventually cause us to fall apart and drastically collapse into a schism. Now you could righfully ask, what does it really matter what you think? That is why we are Catholics and we have the infallible Magisterium of Our Holy Mother Church where we can draw real answers from. Take that away from us, and we are not acting any different from the schismatic Eastern Orthodox or a protestant, who thinks he can be saved through Faith alone.

    We all agree that Pope Francis has said heretical, scandalous, erronous, and harfmful things. However, none of us are competent to accuse the Pope of formal heresy and dethrone him from His Seat. It is just not up to the laity to do this and until that happens and the due authority declare him heretic, Pope Francis is still the valid authority of the visible Church. Saying otherwise, is accepting that the Church has defected, which cannot be.

    As I had already said, in our Catholic Faith, the VISIBLE foundation of the Supreme Pontiff is the glue that has hold us together for more than 2000 years.

    "Talk not much with a fool, and go not with him that hath no sense” (Ecclus. 22:14).
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #2 on: October 08, 2013, 10:25:57 PM »
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  • The Catholic Encyclopedia
    , “Papal Elections,” 1914, Vol. 11, p.
    456: "
    Of course, the election of a heretic
    , schismatic, or female
    [as Pope] would be null and void."

    question: Is Francis the Jєω lover a heretic?

    Pope Paul IV issued a Papal
    Bull solemnly declaring that the
    election of a heretic as pope is null and void
    In 1559 Pope Paul IV issued an entire Pa
    pal Bull dealing with the subject and the
    possibility of a heretic being elected pope.

    at the time that Paul IV issued the Bull (quo
    ted below) there were rumors that one of the
    cardinals was a secret Protestant. In order to prev
    ent the election of such a heretic to the Papacy,
    Pope Paul IV solemnly declared that
    a heretic cannot be validly elected pope
    . Below are the
    pertinent portions of the Bull. Fo
    r the entire Bull, see our website.
    Pope Paul IV, Bull
    cuм ex Apostolatus Officio
    , Feb. 15, 1559: “1... Remembering also that,
    where danger is greater, it must more fu
    lly and more diligently be counteracted, We
    have been concerned lest false prophets or
    others, even if they have only secular
    jurisdiction, should wretchedly ensnare the so
    uls of the simple, and drag with them into
    perdition, destruction and damnation countles
    s peoples committed to their care and rule,
    either in spiritual or in temporal matters; and We have been concerned also
    lest it
    may befall Us to see the abom
    ination of desolation, which
    was spoken of by the prophe
    t Daniel, in the holy place
    .
    In view
    of this, Our desire has been to fulfill our Pastoral duty, insofar as, with the help of God,
    We are able, so as to arrest the foxes who ar
    e occupying themselves in the destruction of
    the vineyard of the Lord and to keep the wolv
    es from the sheepfolds, lest We seem to be
    dumb watchdogs that cannot bark and lest We perish with the wicked husbandman and
    be compared with the hireling...
    6. In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which
    is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact,
    determine, decree and define:-]
    that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop,
    even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the
    aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the
    Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or hi
    s elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff,
    has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy
    :
    (i)
    the promotion or elevation, even if it
    shall have been uncontested and by the
    unanimous assent of all the Cardinal
    s, shall be null, void and worthless

    what say you?

    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #3 on: October 08, 2013, 10:58:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    I appreciate your dogmatic inputs, Ad Jesum Per Mariam. However, I think that not matter what infallible proof you give to the sedevacantists, they just want to persist in their error. Since everything is a possibility in the sedevacantist world because they have an invisible Church with no visible authority, all arguments fall into deaf ears.

    I am not really hostile to the sedevacantists, though. I understand their reasoning and I can even sympathize with it. However, I think that stating that Pope Francis is not the legitimate Supreme Pontiff and that the Chair of Blessed Peter has been vacant for half a century, is going way too far. It crosses the line and opens a dangerous unsolvable pandora box.

    I don't doubt that the sedevancantists do have indeed the good intention of preserving the Catholic Faith in the midst of this modernist crisis. They would never want to be separated from the Church Christ founded but I think they are in error. I would not want for the Traditional Catholic movement fall into this error because it would eventually cause us to fall apart and drastically collapse into a schism. Now you could righfully ask, what does it really matter what you think? That is why we are Catholics and we have the infallible Magisterium of Our Holy Mother Church where we can draw real answers from. Take that away from us, and we are not acting any different from the schismatic Eastern Orthodox or a protestant, who thinks he can be saved through Faith alone.

    We all agree that Pope Francis has said heretical, scandalous, erronous, and harfmful things. However, none of us are competent to accuse the Pope of formal heresy and dethrone him from His Seat. It is just not up to the laity to do this and until that happens and the due authority declare him heretic, Pope Francis is still the valid authority of the visible Church. Saying otherwise, is accepting that the Church has defected, which cannot be.

    As I had already said, in our Catholic Faith, the VISIBLE foundation of the Supreme Pontiff is the glue that has hold us together for more than 2000 years.

    "Talk not much with a fool, and go not with him that hath no sense” (Ecclus. 22:14).


    Very well said Cantarella. Prudence is necessary here. I also do not doubt the intentions of Sedevacantists. There are many things I admire about them:

    1. They are very intelligent (sometimes this hurts them though) imho.
    2. They take the Catholic faith seriously.
    3. They oppose modernism ferociously.
    4. They resist the novelties and the innovations (many are Bugnini free!)
    5   They want the Kingdom of God on Earth

    Unfortunately they do not believe we can have these things and a valid currently reigning Pope as well.


     

    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #4 on: October 08, 2013, 11:41:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    The Catholic Encyclopedia
    , “Papal Elections,” 1914, Vol. 11, p.
    456: "
    Of course, the election of a heretic
    , schismatic, or female
    [as Pope] would be null and void."

    question: Is Francis the Jєω lover a heretic?

    Pope Paul IV issued a Papal
    Bull solemnly declaring that the
    election of a heretic as pope is null and void
    In 1559 Pope Paul IV issued an entire Pa
    pal Bull dealing with the subject and the
    possibility of a heretic being elected pope.

    at the time that Paul IV issued the Bull (quo
    ted below) there were rumors that one of the
    cardinals was a secret Protestant. In order to prev
    ent the election of such a heretic to the Papacy,
    Pope Paul IV solemnly declared that
    a heretic cannot be validly elected pope
    . Below are the
    pertinent portions of the Bull. Fo
    r the entire Bull, see our website.
    Pope Paul IV, Bull
    cuм ex Apostolatus Officio
    , Feb. 15, 1559: “1... Remembering also that,
    where danger is greater, it must more fu
    lly and more diligently be counteracted, We
    have been concerned lest false prophets or
    others, even if they have only secular
    jurisdiction, should wretchedly ensnare the so
    uls of the simple, and drag with them into
    perdition, destruction and damnation countles
    s peoples committed to their care and rule,
    either in spiritual or in temporal matters; and We have been concerned also
    lest it
    may befall Us to see the abom
    ination of desolation, which
    was spoken of by the prophe
    t Daniel, in the holy place
    .
    In view
    of this, Our desire has been to fulfill our Pastoral duty, insofar as, with the help of God,
    We are able, so as to arrest the foxes who ar
    e occupying themselves in the destruction of
    the vineyard of the Lord and to keep the wolv
    es from the sheepfolds, lest We seem to be
    dumb watchdogs that cannot bark and lest We perish with the wicked husbandman and
    be compared with the hireling...
    6. In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which
    is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact,
    determine, decree and define:-]
    that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop,
    even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the
    aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the
    Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or hi
    s elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff,
    has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy
    :
    (i)
    the promotion or elevation, even if it
    shall have been uncontested and by the
    unanimous assent of all the Cardinal
    s, shall be null, void and worthless

    what say you?


    I say the Catholic Church cannot contradict herself. cuм Ex does not declare infallibly that a formally heretical Cardinal will certainly attain the Papacy at some point in Church history. It merely proposes a scenario that Pope Paul IV fallibly thought was possible. Vatican I infallibly states that this cannot happen. It does not contradict cuм Ex. In regards to the Catholic Encyclopedia, even if the Catholic Encyclopedia was infallible, it could not contradict a dogma of the faith. Of course we know that the Catholic Encyclopedia is not infallible, so this a non-issue.  We also have the declarations of Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII concurring with Vatican I in their decrees...

    Pope St. Pius X: “None of the Cardinals may be in any way excluded from the active or passive election of the Sovereign Pontiff under pretext or by reason of any excommunication, suspension, interdict or other ecclesiastical impediment.” (Vacante Sede Apostolica, 1904)

     
    Pope Pius XII: “None of the Cardinals may, by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, or interdict whatsoever, or of any other ecclesiastical impediment, be excluded from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff.” (Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, 1945)

    [/i]



    Offline John

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #5 on: October 09, 2013, 12:20:13 AM »
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  • amateurish babbling and you make a mockery of your name AJPM. Pope St. Pius X would probably punch you for this!!!
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #6 on: October 09, 2013, 12:51:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam


    I say the Catholic Church cannot contradict herself. cuм Ex does not declare infallibly that a formally heretical Cardinal will certainly attain the Papacy at some point in Church history. It merely proposes a scenario that Pope Paul IV fallibly thought was possible. Vatican I infallibly states that this cannot happen. It does not contradict cuм Ex. In regards to the Catholic Encyclopedia, even if the Catholic Encyclopedia was infallible, it could not contradict a dogma of the faith. Of course we know that the Catholic Encyclopedia is not infallible, so this a non-issue.  We also have the declarations of Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII concurring with Vatican I in their decrees...

    Pope St. Pius X: “None of the Cardinals may be in any way excluded from the active or passive election of the Sovereign Pontiff under pretext or by reason of any excommunication, suspension, interdict or other ecclesiastical impediment.” (Vacante Sede Apostolica, 1904)

     
    Pope Pius XII: “None of the Cardinals may, by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, or interdict whatsoever, or of any other ecclesiastical impediment, be excluded from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff.” (Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, 1945)

    [/i]



    What on Earth do these quotes have to do with?  The fact that cardinals cannot be excluded from the election of the Supreme Pontiff?  How does that contradict what Gooch has presented to you?  ie, the fact that a heretic could be legally and unanimously elected, and that the election would be null and void due to his heresy?

    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #7 on: October 09, 2013, 12:56:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: John
    amateurish babbling and you make a mockery of your name AJPM. Pope St. Pius X would probably punch you for this!!!


    Please try to control yourself. Is there something you would like to dispute? That's what the forum is for. Since you are an expert, you should have no trouble finding a flaw in my "babbling."


    Offline John

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #8 on: October 09, 2013, 01:09:01 AM »
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  • AJPM ! Here you are! Silence your keyboard and learn!


    Objection I: Pope Pius XII lifted all ecclesiastical penalties during the conclave to elect the pope. So even if the Vatican II popes were heretics before their elections, they would still be validly elected.

    Answer: Heretics and schismatics are barred by DIVINE LAW from the election to the Papal Office. Pope Pius XII lifted ecclesiastical penalties; he did not, would not, could not dispense from Divine Law. Proof: A. Institutiones Iuris Canonici [1950], Coronata — “Appointment to the Office of the Primacy — What is required by DIVINE LAW for this appointment... Also required for validity is that the one elected be a member of the Church; hence, heretics and apostates (at least public ones) are excluded...” B. Institutiones luris Canonici [1921], Marato — “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the Divine Law itself, because, although by divine law they are not considered incapable of participating in a certain type of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, nevertheless, they must certainly be regarded as excluded from occupying the throne of the Apostolic See, which is the infallible teacher of the truth of the faith and the center of ecclesiastical unity. C. Bull cuм Ex Apostolatus [16 Feb. 1559], Pope Paul IV — “Further, if ever it should appear that any bishop (even one acting as an archbishop, patriarch or primate), or a cardinal of the Roman Church, or a legate (as mentioned above), or even the Roman Pontiff (whether prior to his promotion to cardinal, or prior to his election as Roman Pontiff), has beforehand deviated from the Catholic faith or fallen into any heresy, We enact, decree, determine and define: — “Such promotion or election in and of itself, even with the agreement and unanimous consent of all the cardinals, shall be null, legally invalid and void. — “It shall not be possible for such a promotion or election to be deemed valid or to be valid, neither through reception of office, consecration, subsequent administration, or possession, nor even through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff himself, together with the veneration and obedience accorded him by all. — “Such promotion or election, shall not through any lapse of time in the foregoing situation, be considered even partially legitimate in any way.... — “Each and all of their words, acts, laws, appointments of those so promoted or elected — and indeed, whatsoever flows therefrom — shall be lacking in force, and shall grant no stability and legal power to anyone whatsoever. — “Those so promoted or elected, by that very fact and without the need to make any further declaration, shall be deprived of any dignity, position, honor, title, authority, office and power.” D. Institutiones luris Canonici [1921], C. Baldii — “The law now in force for the election of the Roman Pontiff is reduced to these points:... — “Barred as incapable of being validly elected are the following: women, children who have not reached the age of reason, those suffering from habitual insanity, the unbaptized, heretics and schismatics....”

    Objection II: Vatican Council I taught that St. Peter has perpetual successors; therefore, long vacancies in the See of Peter are not possible.

    Answer: Nowhere does the Church determine how long a vacancy may exist in the See of Peter. Between the death of Pope Clement IV (November 29, 1268) and the election of Pope Gregory X (September 1, 1271), there was an interregnum of nearly three years. During the Western Schism, there were three claimants to the See of Peter; theologians teach that even if none of them were pope, that would not be against the promise of Christ or the teaching of perpetual successors. Proof: A. Institutiones Theologiae Fundamentalis [1929], Rev. A. Dorsch — “The Church therefore is a society that is essentially monarchical. But this does not prevent the Church, for a short time after the death of a pope, or even for many years, from remaining deprived of her head [vel etiam per plures annos capite suo destituta manet].” B. The Relations of the Church to Society [1882], Fr. Edward J. O’Reilly, S.J. — “In the first place, there was all throughout from the death of Gregory XI in 1378, a Pope—with the exception, of course, of the intervals between deaths and elections to fill up the vacancies thereby created. There was, I say, at every given time a Pope, really invested with the dignity of Vicar of Christ and Head of the Church, whatever opinions might exist among many as to his genuineness; not that an interregnum covering the whole period would have been impossible or inconsistent with the promises of Christ, for this is by no means manifest, but that, as a matter of fact, there was not such an interregnum.” C. The Catholic’s Ready Answer [1915], Rev. M. P. Hill, S.J. — “If during the entire schism (nearly 40 years) there had been no Pope at all—that would not prove that the office and authority of Peter was not transmitted to the next Pope duly elected.” D. The Defense of the Catholic Church [1927] Fr. Francis X. Doyle, S.J. — “The Church is a visible society with a visible Ruler. If there can be any doubt about who that visible Ruler is, he is not visible, and hence, where there is any doubt about whether a person has been legitimately elected Pope, that doubt must be removed before he can become the visible head of Christ’s Church. Blessed Bellarmine, S.J., says: 'A doubtful Pope must be considered as not Pope’; and Suarez, S.J., says: 'At the time of the Council of Constance there were three men claiming to be Pope.... Hence, it could have been that not one of them was the true Pope, and in that case, there was no Pope at all....’”

    Objection III: If all the Vatican II popes were invalid, then there would be no cardinals to elect a future pope. Thus the Papacy would come to an end which is impossible.

    Answer: During the Western Schism, three men claimed to be pope (the true pope in Rome, one in Avignon, one in Pisa) In order to heal the nearly forty-year schism, the Council of Constance determined that with all the cardinals, delegates from each country would participate in the papal election (Pope Martin V was elected). Theologians teach that in doubt of or in absence of cardinals, the Church has the right to choose its Head. Proof: A. De Potestate Ecclesiae, Vitoria — “Even if St. Peter would have not determined anything, once he was dead, the Church had the power to substitute him and appoint a successor to him ... If by any calamity, war or plague, all Cardinals would be lacking, we cannot doubt that the Church could provide for herself a Holy Father. — “Hence such an election should be carried out by all the Church and not by any particular Church. And this is because that power is common and it concerns the whole Church. So it must be the duty of the whole Church.” B. De Comparatione Auctoritatis Papae et Concilii, Cajetan, OP — “.. . by exception and by supplementary manner this power (that of electing a pope), corresponds to the Church and to the Council, either by the absence of Cardinal Electors, or because they are doubtful, or the election itself is uncertain, as it happened at the time of the schism.” C. De Ecclesia Christi, Billot — “When it would be necessary to proceed with the election, if it is impossible to follow the regulations of papal law, as was the case during the Great Western Schism, one can accept, without difficulty, that the power of election could be transferred to a General Council.” — “Because natural law prescribes that, in such cases, the power of a superior is passed to the immediate inferior because this is absolutely necessary for the survival of the society and to avoid the tribulations of extreme need.” D. The Church of the Incarnate Word [1954], Msgr. Charles Journet The Church During a Vacancy of the Holy See — “We must not think of the Church, when the Pope is dead, as possessing the papal power in act, in a state of diffusion, so that she herself can delegate it to the next Pope in whom it will be re-condensed and made definite. When the Pope dies the Church is widowed, and, in respect of the visible universal jurisdiction, she is truly acephalous. But she is not acephalous as are the schismatic churches, nor like a body on the way to decomposition. Christ directs her from heaven ... But, though slowed down, the pulse of life has not left the Church; she possesses the power of the Papacy in potency, in the sense that Christ, who has willed her always to depend on a visible pastor, has given her power to designate the man to whom He will Himself commit the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, as once He committed them to Peter. — “During a vacancy of the Apostolic See, neither the Church nor the Council can contravene the provisions already laid down to determine the valid mode of election (Cardinal Cajetan, O.P., in De Comparata, cap.xiii, no. 202). However, in case of permission (for example if the Pope has provided nothing against it), or in case of ambiguity (for example, if it is unknown who the true Cardinals are or who the true Pope is, as was the case at the time of the Great Schism), the power 'of applying the Papacy to such and such a person’ devolves on the universal Church, the Church of God.”

    Objection IV: Even if a pope fell into heresy, he would remain pope until the Church declared him a heretic and no longer pope.

    Answer: Pope Paul IV, in cuм Ex Apostolatus, Pope Innocent III in Si Papa, and theologians teach that a heretical pope is deposed by God. Proof: A. Bull: cuм Ex Apostolatus [16 Feb. 1559], Pope Paul IV — “Further, if ever it should appear that any bishop (even one acting as an archbishop, patriarch or primate), or a cardinal of the Roman Church, or a legate (as mentioned above), or even the Roman Pontiff (whether prior to his promotion to cardinal, or prior to his election as Roman Pontiff), has beforehand deviated from the Catholic faith or fallen into any heresy, We enact, decree, determine and define: — “Such promotion or election in and of itself, even with the agreement and unanimous consent of all the cardinals, shall be null, legally invalid and void... Those so promoted or elected, by that very fact and without the need to make any further declaration, shall be deprived of any dignity, position, honor, title, authority, office and power.” B. Si Papa [1198], Pope Innocent III — “The Pope should not flatter himself about his power nor should he rashly glory in his honor and high estate, because the less he is judged by man, the more he is judged by God. Still the less can the Roman Pontiff glory because he can be judged by men, or rather, can be shown to be already judged, if for example he should wither away into heresy; because he who does not believe is already judged. In such a case it should be said of him: 'If salt should lose its savor, it is good for nothing but to be cast out and trampled under foot by men.’” C. Institutiones Juris Canonici [1950] - Coronata — “If indeed such a situation would happen, he [the Roman Pontiff] would, by divine law, fall from office without any sentence, indeed, without even a declaratory one. He who openly professes heresy places himself outside the Church, and it is not likely that Christ would preserve the Primacy of His Church in one so unworthy. Wherefore, if the Roman Pontiff were to profess heresy, before any condemnatory sentence (which would be impossible anyway) he would lose his authority.” D. St. Robert Bellarmine [1610] — “A Pope who is a manifest heretic automatically ceases to be a Pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church.” E. St. Antoninus [1459] — “In the case in which the Pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that very fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off.” F. St. Francis de Sales [1622] — “Now when the Pope is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church ...” G. Canon Law - [1943] - Wernz-Vidal — “Through notorious and openly divulged heresy, the Roman Pontiff, should he fall into heresy, by that very fact (ipso facto) is deemed to be deprived of the power of jurisdiction even before any declaratory judgment by the Church ... A Pope who falls into public heresy would cease ipso facto to be a member of the Church; therefore, he would also cease to be head of the Church. H. Introductio in Codicem [1946] - Udalricus Beste — “Not a few canonists teach that, outside of death and abdication, the pontifical dignity can also be lost by falling into certain insanity, which is legally equivalent to death, as well as through manifest and notorious heresy. In the latter case, a pope would automatically fall from his power, and this indeed without the issuance of any sentence, for the first See (i.e., the See of Peter) is judged by no one ... The reason is that, by falling into heresy, the pope ceases to be a member of the Church. He who is not a member of a society, obviously, cannot be its head.” I. Epitome Juris Canonici [1949] - A. Vermeersch — “At least according to the more common teaching the Roman Pontiff as a private teacher can fall into manifest heresy. Then, without any declaratory sentence (for the supreme See is judged by no one), he would automatically (ipso facto) fall from power which he who is no longer a member of the Church is unable to possess.” - See more at: http://www.cmri.org/02-answering-objections-sede.html#sthash.xKwoei5y.dpuf
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #9 on: October 09, 2013, 01:09:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: SoldierOfChrist
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam


    I say the Catholic Church cannot contradict herself. cuм Ex does not declare infallibly that a formally heretical Cardinal will certainly attain the Papacy at some point in Church history. It merely proposes a scenario that Pope Paul IV fallibly thought was possible. Vatican I infallibly states that this cannot happen. It does not contradict cuм Ex. In regards to the Catholic Encyclopedia, even if the Catholic Encyclopedia was infallible, it could not contradict a dogma of the faith. Of course we know that the Catholic Encyclopedia is not infallible, so this a non-issue.  We also have the declarations of Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII concurring with Vatican I in their decrees...

    Pope St. Pius X: “None of the Cardinals may be in any way excluded from the active or passive election of the Sovereign Pontiff under pretext or by reason of any excommunication, suspension, interdict or other ecclesiastical impediment.” (Vacante Sede Apostolica, 1904)

     
    Pope Pius XII: “None of the Cardinals may, by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, or interdict whatsoever, or of any other ecclesiastical impediment, be excluded from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff.” (Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, 1945)

    [/i]



    What on Earth do these quotes have to do with?  The fact that cardinals cannot be excluded from the election of the Supreme Pontiff?  How does that contradict what Gooch has presented to you?  ie, the fact that a heretic could be legally and unanimously elected, and that the election would be null and void due to his heresy?


    What on Earth are you saying? cuм Ex never infallibly said that a formally heretical Cardinal would someday attain the Papacy. Vatican I dogmatically stated that this could not happen. Pope Paul IV fallibly presented a scenario. The two quotes state that excommunication for any offense could not prevent a Cardinal from attaining the Papacy. Canon Law does however elaborate on this a little more. Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII are not referring to banned excommunicates. Vatican I infallibly states that whoever succeeds to the Chair obtains the Primacy of Peter over the whole Church. Did you not follow the thread?

    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #10 on: October 09, 2013, 01:46:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: John
    Objection I: Pope Pius XII lifted all ecclesiastical penalties during the conclave to elect the pope. So even if the Vatican II popes were heretics before their elections, they would still be validly elected.

    Answer: Heretics and schismatics are barred by DIVINE LAW from the election to the Papal Office. Pope Pius XII lifted ecclesiastical penalties; he did not, would not, could not dispense from Divine Law. Proof: A. Institutiones Iuris Canonici [1950], Coronata — “Appointment to the Office of the Primacy — What is required by DIVINE LAW for this appointment... Also required for validity is that the one elected be a member of the Church; hence, heretics and apostates (at least public ones) are excluded...” B. Institutiones luris Canonici [1921], Marato — “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the Divine Law itself, because, although by divine law they are not considered incapable of participating in a certain type of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, nevertheless, they must certainly be regarded as excluded from occupying the throne of the Apostolic See, which is the infallible teacher of the truth of the faith and the center of ecclesiastical unity. C. Bull cuм Ex Apostolatus [16 Feb. 1559], Pope Paul IV — “Further, if ever it should appear that any bishop (even one acting as an archbishop, patriarch or primate), or a cardinal of the Roman Church, or a legate (as mentioned above), or even the Roman Pontiff (whether prior to his promotion to cardinal, or prior to his election as Roman Pontiff), has beforehand deviated from the Catholic faith or fallen into any heresy, We enact, decree, determine and define: — “Such promotion or election in and of itself, even with the agreement and unanimous consent of all the cardinals, shall be null, legally invalid and void. — “It shall not be possible for such a promotion or election to be deemed valid or to be valid, neither through reception of office, consecration, subsequent administration, or possession, nor even through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff himself, together with the veneration and obedience accorded him by all. — “Such promotion or election, shall not through any lapse of time in the foregoing situation, be considered even partially legitimate in any way.... — “Each and all of their words, acts, laws, appointments of those so promoted or elected — and indeed, whatsoever flows therefrom — shall be lacking in force, and shall grant no stability and legal power to anyone whatsoever. — “Those so promoted or elected, by that very fact and without the need to make any further declaration, shall be deprived of any dignity, position, honor, title, authority, office and power.” D. Institutiones luris Canonici [1921], C. Baldii — “The law now in force for the election of the Roman Pontiff is reduced to these points:... — “Barred as incapable of being validly elected are the following: women, children who have not reached the age of reason, those suffering from habitual insanity, the unbaptized, heretics and schismatics....”


    John. I don't object to some cutting and pasting, but that was ridiculous. Do some cutting and pasting and then maybe add a few of your own comments. I will try to address this first then get to the rest in a future post.

    Those who are formally heretical are banned from election to the Papal Office, since they are no longer members of the Church. Upon them a declaratory sentence has been given. This is what I meant in a previous post when I stated, "Canon Law does however elaborate on this a little more. Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII are not referring to banned excommunicates." Those excommunicated (if they are not banned) are still members of the Church. One can still receive the Sacraments from them for any just cause...

    Canon 2261~2. The faithful, with due regard for the prescription of ~3, can for any just cause seek the Sacraments and Sacramentals from one excommunicated, especially if other ministers are lacking, and then the one who is excommunicate and approached can administer these and is under no obligation of inquiring the reasons from the one requesting.

    Regarding active and passive election, their acts are not null, provided they are not formally banned...

    Canon 2265~1.2 states that: Anyone excommunicated is prohibited from the right of electing…
    But,   
    Canon 2265~2 states that: An act posited contrary to the prescription of Canon 2265~1.2 is not null, unless it was posited by a banned excommunicate or an excommunicate after a condemnatory or declaratory sentence has been given.[/u]


    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #11 on: October 09, 2013, 02:15:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: John
    AJPM ! Here you are! Silence your keyboard and learn!

    Objection II: Vatican Council I taught that St. Peter has perpetual successors; therefore, long vacancies in the See of Peter are not possible.

    Answer: Nowhere does the Church determine how long a vacancy may exist in the See of Peter. Between the death of Pope Clement IV (November 29, 1268) and the election of Pope Gregory X (September 1, 1271), there was an interregnum of nearly three years. During the Western Schism, there were three claimants to the See of Peter; theologians teach that even if none of them were pope, that would not be against the promise of Christ or the teaching of perpetual successors. Proof: A. Institutiones Theologiae Fundamentalis [1929], Rev. A. Dorsch — “The Church therefore is a society that is essentially monarchical. But this does not prevent the Church, for a short time after the death of a pope, or even for many years, from remaining deprived of her head [vel etiam per plures annos capite suo destituta manet].” B. The Relations of the Church to Society [1882], Fr. Edward J. O’Reilly, S.J. — “In the first place, there was all throughout from the death of Gregory XI in 1378, a Pope—with the exception, of course, of the intervals between deaths and elections to fill up the vacancies thereby created. There was, I say, at every given time a Pope, really invested with the dignity of Vicar of Christ and Head of the Church, whatever opinions might exist among many as to his genuineness; not that an interregnum covering the whole period would have been impossible or inconsistent with the promises of Christ, for this is by no means manifest, but that, as a matter of fact, there was not such an interregnum.” C. The Catholic’s Ready Answer [1915], Rev. M. P. Hill, S.J. — “If during the entire schism (nearly 40 years) there had been no Pope at all—that would not prove that the office and authority of Peter was not transmitted to the next Pope duly elected.” D. The Defense of the Catholic Church [1927] Fr. Francis X. Doyle, S.J. — “The Church is a visible society with a visible Ruler. If there can be any doubt about who that visible Ruler is, he is not visible, and hence, where there is any doubt about whether a person has been legitimately elected Pope, that doubt must be removed before he can become the visible head of Christ’s Church. Blessed Bellarmine, S.J., says: 'A doubtful Pope must be considered as not Pope’; and Suarez, S.J., says: 'At the time of the Council of Constance there were three men claiming to be Pope.... Hence, it could have been that not one of them was the true Pope, and in that case, there was no Pope at all....’”


    Unfortunately this argument misses the main point I presented in my first post. Please read carefully. If there is someone in the Chair of Peter we have a valid Pope. This is a dogma.

    Whoever succeeds to the Chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ Himself (that is by Divine Law), the primacy of Peter over the whole Church. He is indeed a true Roman Pontiff.

    Whoever does not allow for exceptions.

    Not: Whoever I believe has succeeded to the Chair obtains the primacy...

    Nor: Whoever succeeds to the chair does not necessarily obtain the primacy...

    Pope Paul IV (cuм Ex) does not infallibly decree that a formally heretical Cardinal will at some point obtain the Papacy. Pope Paul IV presents a fallible scenario. Therefore Vatican I does not contradict it.

    Offline ThomisticPhilosopher

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #12 on: October 09, 2013, 03:06:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    The First Vatican Council

    Chapter 2. On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs

    That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time [45] .

    For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the catholic church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the saviour and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the holy Roman see, which he founded and consecrated with his blood
    [46] .

    Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received [47] .

    For this reason it has always been necessary for every church--that is to say the faithful throughout the world--to be in agreement with the Roman church because of its more effective leadership. In consequence of being joined, as members to head, with that see, from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body [48] .

    Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy:let him be anathema.
    [/color]
    [/u]
     
    Whoever succeeds to the Chair of Peter obtains the Primacy of Peter over the whole Church. Hence he is a true Roman Pontiff. (Dogma).

    Not: Whoever I believe succeeds to the Chair obtains the primacy.

    Nor is it: Whoever succeeds to the chair does not obtain the primacy.


    "The Dogma states that the Pontiff of Rome at any time is, in fact, the holder of the Primacy." Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ott) Pg. 283


    Not that I need heretics to prove our position, but just the other day I was reading some material of our old heretical buddhies the Old Catholics, and particularly Jansenists also. Pretty much all of those multi-conglomerate group of heretics that deny Vatican I.

    They agree that the real issue of Sedevacantism vs Vatican II, is primarily that the Conciliarist reject Vatican I and Sedevacantist accept Vatican I. Now this is a reason why they are not particularly fond of the Sedevacantist because they are so STRONGLY Vatican I. This is precisely the Council that actually exonerates our position. It is incredible how you can be able to quote the Church against the Church! To quote the Saints against themselves! They strongly agree with Vatican II on many issues the vernacular liturgy, ecuмenism, socially liberal on moral issues and the only thing that they disagree is that they are quite liturgically conservative. They prefer the Tridentine mass slightly modified and properly translated to the host country. Its going to be interesting comparing the new approved translation of the 1962 missal and compare it with the Old Catholic heretics. Its interesting because many of them have hybrid Latin/vernacular masses, ad Orientem. Interesting how much heretics can agree with each other! When your enemy actually understands you, then you know where you stand and I think I can agree with their view.

    I will promise you a much better response with your original post. Give me some time, I am not sure if I should just make a whole thread myself, or post here. You are dealing with something that I was already wanting to write about, thanks for bringing it up.

    What I will go over particularly is the commentary of the Council Father's of Vatican I. Now what is amazing is that St. Robert Bellarmine of whom is called Doctor of the papacy and who all the Council Father's enshrined his theology (exonerating him above all other theologians on this topic) in Vatican I. Yet, you still reject Bellarmine's main thesis dealing with the pope-heretic issue. There are some VERY good quotes of the Father's of Vatican I and Bellarmine's role in it.

    The real only debate is whether or not we are wrong with them being public and manifest. This is where the real discussion should take place... However, once you agree on what public and manifest actually equals, then the next step would be to see if that applies to the claimants. If it does, then you know what has happened. You have an anti-pope ladies and gentleman.
    https://keybase.io/saintaquinas , has all my other verified accounts including PGP key plus BTC address for bitcoin tip jar. A.M.D.G.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #13 on: October 09, 2013, 04:20:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    I am not really hostile to the sedevacantists, though.


    and

    Quote from: Cantarella
    "Talk not much with a fool, and go not with him that hath no sense” (Ecclus. 22:14).


    Yep, you're not hostile.  

    With the incessant anti-SV threads/posts around here and this type of comment, it's totally the SV's that are the bullies.  Without a doubt.


    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Dogma has already settled "Sedevacantism"
    « Reply #14 on: October 09, 2013, 04:29:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: ThomisticPhilosopher
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    The First Vatican Council

    Chapter 2. On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs

    That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time [45] .

    For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the catholic church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the saviour and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the holy Roman see, which he founded and consecrated with his blood
    [46] .

    Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received [47] .

    For this reason it has always been necessary for every church--that is to say the faithful throughout the world--to be in agreement with the Roman church because of its more effective leadership. In consequence of being joined, as members to head, with that see, from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body [48] .

    Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy:let him be anathema.
    [/color]
    [/u]
     
    Whoever succeeds to the Chair of Peter obtains the Primacy of Peter over the whole Church. Hence he is a true Roman Pontiff. (Dogma).

    Not: Whoever I believe succeeds to the Chair obtains the primacy.

    Nor is it: Whoever succeeds to the chair does not obtain the primacy.


    "The Dogma states that the Pontiff of Rome at any time is, in fact, the holder of the Primacy." Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ott) Pg. 283


    Not that I need heretics to prove our position, but just the other day I was reading some material of our old heretical buddhies the Old Catholics, and particularly Jansenists also. Pretty much all of those multi-conglomerate group of heretics that deny Vatican I.

    They agree that the real issue of Sedevacantism vs Vatican II, is primarily that the Conciliarist reject Vatican I and Sedevacantist accept Vatican I. Now this is a reason why they are not particularly fond of the Sedevacantist because they are so STRONGLY Vatican I. This is precisely the Council that actually exonerates our position. It is incredible how you can be able to quote the Church against the Church! To quote the Saints against themselves! They strongly agree with Vatican II on many issues the vernacular liturgy, ecuмenism, socially liberal on moral issues and the only thing that they disagree is that they are quite liturgically conservative. They prefer the Tridentine mass slightly modified and properly translated to the host country. Its going to be interesting comparing the new approved translation of the 1962 missal and compare it with the Old Catholic heretics. Its interesting because many of them have hybrid Latin/vernacular masses, ad Orientem. Interesting how much heretics can agree with each other! When your enemy actually understands you, then you know where you stand and I think I can agree with their view.

    I will promise you a much better response with your original post. Give me some time, I am not sure if I should just make a whole thread myself, or post here. You are dealing with something that I was already wanting to write about, thanks for bringing it up.

    What I will go over particularly is the commentary of the Council Father's of Vatican I. Now what is amazing is that St. Robert Bellarmine of whom is called Doctor of the papacy and who all the Council Father's enshrined his theology (exonerating him above all other theologians on this topic) in Vatican I. Yet, you still reject Bellarmine's main thesis dealing with the pope-heretic issue. There are some VERY good quotes of the Father's of Vatican I and Bellarmine's role in it.

    The real only debate is whether or not we are wrong with them being public and manifest. This is where the real discussion should take place... However, once you agree on what public and manifest actually equals, then the next step would be to see if that applies to the claimants. If it does, then you know what has happened. You have an anti-pope ladies and gentleman.


    Please post a new thread.  It would be nice to see a thread that counteracts the incessant AJPM anti-SV threads.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)