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Poll

Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?

Yes
16 (32%)
No
28 (56%)
Don't know
6 (12%)

Total Members Voted: 48

Author Topic: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?  (Read 3851 times)

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Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2022, 12:53:08 PM »
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  • In another comment you mention, “The only way is to claim that the commander has no authority but is still somehow their commander as the SSPX does but the FSSP actually acknowledges Francis as their legitimate superior and would even dissolve at his command I suspect.”  I agree that both have a false position however, it is a more Catholic position to dissolve at the command of the Pope if you do believe he is the Pope and I’m sure many religious orders have done just that. Not SSPX because they deny the authority of the Pope, which is Church dogma. 
    I agree. But it is more Catholic to resist heresy than to submit to it. They both have a fundamental problem.
    By the nature of controlled opposition you can not always know it is controlled so I don’t know why you dismiss my suspicion so confidently but hold your own.  This is not a good time for cults of personality; we lost our Pope and +Lefebvre did not want to acknowledge that?  He could have been wrong but he also could have been controlled opposition.
    I'm quite convinced +Lefebvre wasn't controlled by the modernists because that much is patently obvious and he even considered sedevacantism around the time of Assisi. If you watch the docuмentary put out by the SSPX you should be convinced at least about his sincerity.

    I think +Lefebvre was more holy, humble and sincere than any traditional cleric I know of today despite his grave error which at the time was more excusable and was perhaps caused by a false understanding of humility.

    I don't know if he is in Heaven but if he isn't I'd say I don't have much of a chance.


    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #46 on: October 03, 2022, 01:11:22 PM »
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  • It's ICKSP so 99% not a real priest. He should still ask to make sure though.

    If he's not valid God will still provide you enough graces through the rosary, perfect contrition, etc. but going to confession is still a must.
    I personally believe new orders are valid but I'd be a liar if I said I have absolutely no doubt. I've been attending a byzantine parish lately and am considering going there full time. The priest there was not ordained novus ordo. He's a byzantine priest from somewhere around Ukraine or something. I remember looking into it awhile back. 
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!


    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #47 on: October 03, 2022, 01:29:02 PM »
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  • I personally believe new orders are valid but I'd be a liar if I said I have absolutely no doubt. I've been attending a byzantine parish lately and am considering going there full time. The priest there was not ordained novus ordo. He's a byzantine priest from somewhere around Ukraine or something. I remember looking into it awhile back.
    Just do it. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The whole point is that doubtful orders are to be considered as invalid for even if the chance is small they are invalid the risk involved is enormous.

    The risk/benefit ratio is wildly in favour of attending the byzantine rite.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #48 on: October 03, 2022, 01:40:40 PM »
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  • Just do it. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The whole point is that doubtful orders are to be considered as invalid for even if the chance is small they are invalid the risk involved is enormous.

    The risk/benefit ratio is wildly in favour of attending the byzantine rite.

    Agreed.  There's no doubt about the validity of the Eastern Rite Sacraments ... apart from an occasional straggler who switches over from the Novus Ordo (and then of course they don't conditionally re-ordain them).  You don't see that often with the Ukrainians.  Even the Maronite Sacraments are certainly valid, although they've definitely modernized the externals of their Liturgy (more vernacular, lay readers, even altar girls, turning the altar around, pushing tabernacle off to the side ... although the basic forms haven't changed, and they even say the words of Consecration in Aramaic).  Dimond Brothers had no issues receiving the Sacraments from Eastern Rite priests.

    Now, you may encounter slightly bit more Modernism in the Catholic Eastern Rites (moreso among Maronite and Byantine, less so among Ukrainian), as conservative Novus Ordites tends to flock to the Indult/Motu ... but that's the tradeoff for valid Sacraments.  Also, there's no question of Communion in the Hand because the Byzatine families of Rites distribute Holy Communion from a spoon that contains Both Species while the Maronites use intincture (dipping the Bread Species into the Wine Species) ... also rendering Communion in the Hand impossible.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #49 on: October 03, 2022, 01:49:34 PM »
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  • I think +Lefebvre was more holy, humble and sincere than any traditional cleric I know of today despite his grave error which at the time was more excusable and was perhaps caused by a false understanding of humility.

    Indeed, why would you stand up a "controlled opposition" to keep alive a movement that would have pretty much died out by now without him?  Had there been no +Lefebvre, no SSPX, we'd be witnessing the dying off of the older pre-Vatican II Traditional priests (Father Leo Carley near me is one of the last, in his late 80s now but still going strong) ... apart from PERHAPS the +Thuc line, but God knows whether +Thuc would have had the courage to do what he did had Archbishop Lefebvre not set something of a precedent in resisting the Modernists.

    But ... I actually don't believe he committed any kind of "grave error" on the Pope question. He made it clear that he believed that this degree of destruction was not possible given the guidance of the Holy Spirit over the Church and the Papacy, stated repeatedly that the Conciliar Church does not have the Marks of the Catholic Church.  He simply felt that he lacked the certainty of faith (and was not incorrect) to judge the Holy See vacant ... barring some other possible explanation.  So he merely prescinded from the ultimate conclusion due to lack of absolute certainty.  His mistake was to not articulate this more emphatically, with the result tha many of his followers amplified his position into the dogmatic R&R we see today, something which in the final analysis as closely akin to Old Catholicism.

    I believe that +Lefebvres serious error was on the theological foundation for all the Vatican II errors, EENS dogma and the resulting ecclesiology.  His articulation of EENS leads inexorably to the V2 ecclesiology as its logical conclusion, and all the V2 errors flow from that ecclesiology.  So he misfired on that, and that goes to show how deep the rot had gotten on that particular issue.


    Offline Melanie

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #50 on: October 03, 2022, 01:56:24 PM »
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  • Indeed, why would you stand up a "controlled opposition" to keep alive a movement that would have pretty much died out by now without him?  Had there been no +Lefebvre, no SSPX, we'd be witnessing the dying off of the older pre-Vatican II Traditional priests (Father Leo Carley near me is one of the last, in his late 80s now but still going strong) ... apart from PERHAPS the +Thuc line, but God knows whether +Thuc would have had the courage to do what he did had Archbishop Lefebvre not set something of a precedent in resisting the Modernists.

    But ... I actually don't believe he committed any kind of "grave error" on the Pope question. He made it clear that he believed that this degree of destruction was not possible given the guidance of the Holy Spirit over the Church and the Papacy, stated repeatedly that the Conciliar Church does not have the Marks of the Catholic Church.  He simply felt that he lacked the certainty of faith (and was not incorrect) to judge the Holy See vacant ... barring some other possible explanation.  So he merely prescinded from the ultimate conclusion due to lack of absolute certainty.  His mistake was to not articulate this more emphatically, with the result tha many of his followers amplified his position into the dogmatic R&R we see today, something which in the final analysis as closely akin to Old Catholicism.

    I believe that +Lefebvres serious error was on the theological foundation for all the Vatican II errors, EENS dogma and the resulting ecclesiology.  His articulation of EENS leads inexorably to the V2 ecclesiology as its logical conclusion, and all the V2 errors flow from that ecclesiology.  So he misfired on that, and that goes to show how deep the rot had gotten on that particular issue.
    Ladislaus, I was wondering if you’d mind if I sent you information about a Byzantine Catholic priest near me?  I respect your opinion and would like to know your thoughts.  I just don’t know very much about the eastern rites, Catholic or Orthodox.  

    Offline Melanie

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #51 on: October 03, 2022, 02:30:24 PM »
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  • Agreed.  There's no doubt about the validity of the Eastern Rite Sacraments ... apart from an occasional straggler who switches over from the Novus Ordo (and then of course they don't conditionally re-ordain them).  You don't see that often with the Ukrainians.  Even the Maronite Sacraments are certainly valid, although they've definitely modernized the externals of their Liturgy (more vernacular, lay readers, even altar girls, turning the altar around, pushing tabernacle off to the side ... although the basic forms haven't changed, and they even say the words of Consecration in Aramaic).  Dimond Brothers had no issues receiving the Sacraments from Eastern Rite priests.

    Now, you may encounter slightly bit more Modernism in the Catholic Eastern Rites (moreso among Maronite and Byantine, less so among Ukrainian), as conservative Novus Ordites tends to flock to the Indult/Motu ... but that's the tradeoff for valid Sacraments.  Also, there's no question of Communion in the Hand because the Byzatine families of Rites distribute Holy Communion from a spoon that contains Both Species while the Maronites use intincture (dipping the Bread Species into the Wine Species) ... also rendering Communion in the Hand impossible.
    I meant to quote this one not the one where you are trying to destroy my controlled opposition suspicion, lol.  You guys are probably correct about +Lefebvre and I hope you are.  And ServusInutilisDomini, you also made a good point that one can know with confidence that Wojtyla was controlled opposition and it is likely that +Lefebvre was honestly mistaken.  

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #52 on: October 03, 2022, 03:16:49 PM »
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  • Agreed.  There's no doubt about the validity of the Eastern Rite Sacraments ... apart from an occasional straggler who switches over from the Novus Ordo (and then of course they don't conditionally re-ordain them).  You don't see that often with the Ukrainians.  Even the Maronite Sacraments are certainly valid, although they've definitely modernized the externals of their Liturgy (more vernacular, lay readers, even altar girls, turning the altar around, pushing tabernacle off to the side ... although the basic forms haven't changed, and they even say the words of Consecration in Aramaic).  Dimond Brothers had no issues receiving the Sacraments from Eastern Rite priests.

    Now, you may encounter slightly bit more Modernism in the Catholic Eastern Rites (moreso among Maronite and Byantine, less so among Ukrainian), as conservative Novus Ordites tends to flock to the Indult/Motu ... but that's the tradeoff for valid Sacraments.  Also, there's no question of Communion in the Hand because the Byzatine families of Rites distribute Holy Communion from a spoon that contains Both Species while the Maronites use intincture (dipping the Bread Species into the Wine Species) ... also rendering Communion in the Hand impossible.
    Do Eastern Catholic priests speak out against Vatican II/Rome/Bergoglio?  Or do they consider the Western church as if it were a separate church?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #53 on: October 03, 2022, 03:21:39 PM »
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  • Just do it. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The whole point is that doubtful orders are to be considered as invalid for even if the chance is small they are invalid the risk involved is enormous.

    The risk/benefit ratio is wildly in favour of attending the byzantine rite.
    Not necessarily.
    The byzantine priest near me is a NO diocesan priest trained to say the byzantine mass.  Seven days a week he says the NO mass and on Sunday ALSO says the byzantine mass.

    Doubtful orders are considered doubtful.  
    When in doubt, do without.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #54 on: October 03, 2022, 04:07:40 PM »
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  • NO.  Indult comes under the authority of the dioceses bishop.  Their money, in the collection plate supports dioceses.  Dioceses has taken on Catholic Charities for well over 60 years. Serving the federal agenda by grants.  Serving abortion, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and you name it they do it.  Lifesitenews has brought this to our attention by Michael Hichborn, Lepanto Institute.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #55 on: October 03, 2022, 04:55:26 PM »
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  • I just don’t know very much about the eastern rites, Catholic or Orthodox. 
    I was taught Roman Catholics are not meant to understand Eastern rites.  It would be difficult to attend and know if they miss or change something.


    Offline shimano

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #56 on: October 03, 2022, 04:59:29 PM »
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  • The Indult mass is a plot to steer Catholics away from the true Divine Sacrifice and keep them in Newchurch. 

    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #57 on: October 04, 2022, 03:44:18 PM »
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  • Do Eastern Catholic priests speak out against Vatican II/Rome/Bergoglio?  Or do they consider the Western church as if it were a separate church?
    The byzantine priest here in Columbus ohio does not speak out against these things, though he wrote in a magazine article that the German bishops are heretics. I'm not super familiar with him yet but he seems like he's neo conservative. Certainly not a liberal modernist but no traditionalist that's for sure. Everything liturgically is done by the books from what I know. No nonsense there. However his sermons are generally brief and pretty generic but nothing heretical. I'd prefer to be in the company of a much more traditional congregation but they're nowhere as bad as those you come across at your average novus ordo. People genuinely seem to be there for religion not a social club but the people r certainly more devout at the indult.
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #58 on: October 11, 2022, 01:26:48 PM »
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  • Spoke to a friend yesterday who attends the SSPX chapel in Washington.  They now only have one Sunday Mass because many have left.  The claim is people have moved, true, but it's also due to the fact that the FSSP was finally able to buy a chapel very close by (per the usual) and they now have four Sunday services.  

    The FSSP was established to shut down the work of +Lefebvre but the laity have no idea.


    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #59 on: October 11, 2022, 01:40:23 PM »
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  • I voted "no," because their very existence is predicated upon their principled acceptance of the modernist doctrines of Vatican II and the post-conciliar deformations.

    From Ecclesia Dei Adflicta: ''

    "To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary [but not dogmatic or doctrinal!] forms of the Latin tradition, I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their aspirations."

    and again:

    "...priests, seminarians, religious communities, or individuals until now linked in various ways to the Fraternity founded by Archbishop Lefebvre, who may wish to remain united to the Successor of Peter in the Catholic Church while preserving their spiritual and liturgical [but not dogmatic or dontrinal!] traditions..."

    And this same motu proprio reaffirming the provisions of the 1984 letter, which containd this condition:

    "Since, however, the same problem continues, the Supreme Pontiff, in a desire to meet the wishes of these groups grants to diocesan bishops the possibility of using an indult whereby priests and faithful, who shall be expressly indicated in the letter of request to be presented to their own bishop, may be able to celebrate Mass by using the Roman Missal according to the 1962 edition, but under the following conditions:

    a) That it be made publicly clear beyond all ambiguity that such priests and their respective faithful in no way share the positions of those who call in question the legitimacy and doctrinal exactitude of the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970."

    Therefore, if one agrees to forego traditional doctrine, and has no principled objection to the new Mass, in what way would this person be considered "traditional," except in the most superficial sense?

    Noblesse oblige.