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Poll

Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?

Yes
16 (32%)
No
28 (56%)
Don't know
6 (12%)

Total Members Voted: 48

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Author Topic: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?  (Read 3886 times)

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Offline trad123

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Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
« on: October 01, 2022, 03:55:41 PM »
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    • Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?

    Vote.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #1 on: October 01, 2022, 04:26:59 PM »
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    • No, as the term Traditional (with a capital T) reflects the fact that Traditional Catholics reject the Conciliar orientation as being a rupture with Tradition, and a mere preference for the Tridentine Mass is simply traditional with a lower-case t.  This is where the term Traditional comes from, a term used to describe the fact that we remain faithful to Tradition rather than going along with the V2 revolution, which we see as a rejection of Tradition.

    Now, there may be some who go to Indult or Motu or even FFSP Masses who do believe that the NOM and the Conciliar Church have broken with Tradition, but the Indult/Motu in principle is aligned with the notion that it's a mere preference, as it suits our personal spirituality better.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #2 on: October 01, 2022, 04:53:10 PM »
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    • I know this isn't the point, but the idea of a traditional Catholic movement is a purely political idea. Movements do things and go places. Traditionalists should, by definition, resist 'movement.' I do not regard myself as part of any traditionalist movement, but I DEFINITELY would regard the indult as part of a traditional Catholic movement. They are highly political and constantly attempting to 'change the Church.' 
    .
    Indult types are not only PART of the traditional movement, I'd say they ARE the traditional movement. The rest of us take a traditionalist POSITION, which is different. 
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    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #3 on: October 01, 2022, 05:02:21 PM »
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    • Is there still true indult ? Didn't BXVI's SP free the TLM of indult ?

    And Bergiglio's TC is suppression rather than indult. Correct ?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #4 on: October 01, 2022, 05:43:20 PM »
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    • So, for the people who voted yes, do you have an explanation?
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    Offline Melanie

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #5 on: October 01, 2022, 06:00:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 01, 2022, 05:43:20 PM
    So, for the people who voted yes, do you have an explanation?
    Well, not being sure what the traditional Catholic movement is, I’ve know families who attended indult and they were very traditional. Personally, I think everyone should be flipping out and vehemently advocating getting the Church a Pope but zero people are doing that. How are they any less a part of the traditional Catholic movement than say SSPX or SSPX Resistance or Sedevacantists? Or maybe it’s a political movement?
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #6 on: October 01, 2022, 06:19:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 01, 2022, 05:43:20 PM
    So, for the people who voted yes, do you have an explanation?
    I voted yes and gave my reasoning above. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #7 on: October 01, 2022, 06:49:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: HolyAngels on October 01, 2022, 05:02:21 PM
    Is there still true indult ? Didn't BXVI's SP free the TLM of indult ?

    And Bergiglio's TC is suppression rather than indult. Correct ?
    "Indult" has morphed into a colloquial term for the TLM being celebrated under diocesan auspices, or those of the FSSP, ICKSP, and so on.  It's technically inaccurate, but it's become a kind of shorthand.
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    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #8 on: October 01, 2022, 07:31:47 PM »
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    • I personally attend a local ICKSP oratory because it's all that's around and I believe that new holy orders are valid. But I reject the new mass as offensive to God at worst and deficient and dangerously ambiguous at best. I also view vatican 2 as heretical at worst and dangerously ambiguous at best. Either way I view the new mass and vatican 2 as something that needs to go. Even if somethings isn't technically heretical, if it's constantly used to undermine the true faith because of ambiguities it's got to go. Like the CCC saying that Muslims claim to worship the same God. Just in that sentence it can be said that it's not heretical because it says they claim to worship the same God. It doesn't say they do worship the same God. But if you read everything after, all the Muslim ass kissing, you are left believing Catholics and Muslims both worship the same God anyway.  
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    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #9 on: October 01, 2022, 07:44:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on October 01, 2022, 06:49:30 PM
    "Indult" has morphed into a colloquial term for the TLM being celebrated under diocesan auspices, or those of the FSSP, ICKSP, and so on.  It's technically inaccurate, but it's become a kind of shorthand.
    Ok, fair enough,
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #10 on: October 02, 2022, 05:48:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on October 01, 2022, 04:53:10 PM
    I know this isn't the point, but the idea of a traditional Catholic movement is a purely political idea. Movements do things and go places. Traditionalists should, by definition, resist 'movement.' I do not regard myself as part of any traditionalist movement, but I DEFINITELY would regard the indult as part of a traditional Catholic movement. They are highly political and constantly attempting to 'change the Church.'
    .
    Indult types are not only PART of the traditional movement, I'd say they ARE the traditional movement. The rest of us take a traditionalist POSITION, which is different.
    What would be examples of them trying "to change the Church"?  
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    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    • O sacrum convivum... https://youtu.be/-WCicnX6pN8
    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #11 on: October 02, 2022, 09:53:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Todd The Trad on October 01, 2022, 07:31:47 PM
    I personally attend a local ICKSP oratory because it's all that's around and I believe that new holy orders are valid. But I reject the new mass as offensive to God at worst and deficient and dangerously ambiguous at best. I also view vatican 2 as heretical at worst and dangerously ambiguous at best. Either way I view the new mass and vatican 2 as something that needs to go. Even if somethings isn't technically heretical, if it's constantly used to undermine the true faith because of ambiguities it's got to go. Like the CCC saying that Muslims claim to worship the same God. Just in that sentence it can be said that it's not heretical because it says they claim to worship the same God. It doesn't say they do worship the same God. But if you read everything after, all the Muslim ass kissing, you are left believing Catholics and Muslims both worship the same God anyway. 
    If you were pressed on your position in a debate what would you fall back on as safer and more likely? All the people I heard say V2 is maybe heretical when pressed deny it is heretical but only ambiguous. This tends to be the indult position which claims that V2 wasn't the problem but the "spirit of V2".

    I hope this 10-minute video will settle your doubts about the heresy of Vatican II:

    I recommend reading this PDF of some of the main heresies of V2 as well.

    Also, much more important than recognizing explicit heresies in Vatican II is for you to get the true sacraments. I beg you to reconsider the validity of the new rite and read Fr Cekada's study.

    God bless you.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #12 on: October 02, 2022, 11:50:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Todd The Trad on October 01, 2022, 07:31:47 PM
    I personally attend a local ICKSP oratory because it's all that's around and I believe that new holy orders are valid. But I reject the new mass as offensive to God at worst and deficient and dangerously ambiguous at best. I also view vatican 2 as heretical at worst and dangerously ambiguous at best. Either way I view the new mass and vatican 2 as something that needs to go. Even if somethings isn't technically heretical, if it's constantly used to undermine the true faith because of ambiguities it's got to go. Like the CCC saying that Muslims claim to worship the same God. Just in that sentence it can be said that it's not heretical because it says they claim to worship the same God. It doesn't say they do worship the same God. But if you read everything after, all the Muslim ass kissing, you are left believing Catholics and Muslims both worship the same God anyway. 

    As I mentioned, I'm sure there are some who assist at "Indult" Masses who are nevertheless Traditional (rejecting V2, the NOM, etc.) ... but I was speaking about the movement in general ... just as I'm sure that a fair number of sedevacantists assist at SSPX chapels, but you wouldn't therefore characterize SSPX as a sedevacantist movement.
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    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #13 on: October 02, 2022, 12:03:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 02, 2022, 11:50:39 AM
    As I mentioned, I'm sure there are some who assist at "Indult" Masses who are nevertheless Traditional (rejecting V2, the NOM, etc.) ... but I was speaking about the movement in general ... just as I'm sure that a fair number of sedevacantists assist at SSPX chapels, but you wouldn't therefore characterize SSPX as a sedevacantist movement.
    Yes I understand. There are many at my church who merly prefer the latin mass. And the priest never speaks out from the pulpit. I'd much rather be attending a more traditional chapel. I've been attending a byzantine parish lately but I wouldn't consider the priest traditional. Seems to be a neo conservative. At least the mass is traditional and he doesn't say anything heretical. Something that bothers me though is I think they officially venerate saints that were never catholic like gregory palamas. 
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #14 on: October 02, 2022, 02:00:55 PM »
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    • Archbishop Lefebvre had permission to consecrate one bishop and instead he consecrated four.  So, after years of trying to have an 'experiment with Tradition', Pope Saint John Paul II the Great instead excommunicated +Lefebvre and his four bishops.  Almost instantaneously, he then introduced/allowed the formation of the FSSP from among the former SSPX clergy who thought +Lefebvre had gone too far.  

    The reason for its existence is/was to pull adherents away from the SSPX (like establishing parishes everywhere the SSPX is set up) and the archbishop said to stay away from them (I don't have that quote handy but maybe someone here could help out).  Though there are many pious laymen and well-intentioned priests in the FSSP, the organization itself wasn't/isn't about Doctrine but about the Latin Mass and was off track from the beginning.

    My vote is No.
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