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Poll

Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?

Yes
16 (31.4%)
No
29 (56.9%)
Don't know
6 (11.8%)

Total Members Voted: 48

Author Topic: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?  (Read 5072 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2022, 07:51:34 AM »
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  • There are a few edge cases, refugees from SSPX, or someone from the old days ordained by someone like Cardinal Arinze or one of the few others that occasionally did these ... but, apart from those, yes.  I believe Cardinal Palazzini (valid) did one or two of them.  Also, there's the group tied to to +Rifan down in Brazil.  Although he was consecrated by Hoyos (New Rite), +Rangel was a co-consecrator, and he had been consecrated by the +Lefebvre bishops.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #31 on: October 03, 2022, 07:59:33 AM »
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  • There are a few edge cases, refugees from SSPX, or someone from the old days ordained by someone like Cardinal Arinze or one of the few others that occasionally did these ... but, apart from those, yes.
    Right.  So, the FSSP and ICKSP are in line with the Novus Ordo with respect to ordaining their "priests".  Why does it matter if they hold onto the TLM when it is at best doubtful that the priest offering it is even a priest?

    It seems to me that having traditional ordinations and consecrations should be the minimum litmus test. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #32 on: October 03, 2022, 08:01:14 AM »
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  • Right.  So, the FSSP and ICKSP are in line with the Novus Ordo with respect to ordaining their "priests".  Why does it matter if they hold onto the TLM when it is at best doubtful that the priest offering it is even a priest?

    It seems to me that having traditional ordinations and consecrations should be the minimum litmus test.

    Yes, although there are some who claim (whether they really believe it or not is a different matter entirely) that the New Rite is valid.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #33 on: October 03, 2022, 09:41:53 AM »
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  • Hopefully that is sarcasm, because "The Great" or a "Saint" he is not.
    Yes, that was sarcasm.  But I should've included the full title anyway - Pope Saint John Paul II the Great.  Now that's a title!

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #34 on: October 03, 2022, 10:23:38 AM »
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  • Not quite understanding what you mean here, sorry.  Every indult/Ecclesia Dei/Summorum pontificuм Mass I've ever heard of, uses the 1962 missal and the calendar that goes with it.  The "-gesima" Sundays prior to Lent, Ember Days, traditional solemnities on their proper dates, they're all there.
    Holy Week prayer for the conversion of the Jews was changed to a heretical form, new Missal, not traditional. It may vary from location to location (as usually the case with the non-universal "church"), but I have seen ICK use the new calenadr and even add the new readings, not traditional.


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #35 on: October 03, 2022, 10:39:18 AM »
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  • Holy Week prayer for the conversion of the Jєωs was changed to a heretical form, new Missal, not traditional. It may vary from location to location (as usually the case with the non-universal "church"), but I have seen ICK use the new calenadr and even add the new readings, not traditional.
    Sspx, too.
    Recently heard an sspx priest preach on the benefits of the divine mercy chaplet.  :facepalm:
    Wish I had an alternative near me.  

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #36 on: October 03, 2022, 10:40:29 AM »
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  • Hopefully the explanation for the many "yes" answers is that people haven't thought it through.

    The indult is controlled opposition. Every powerful strategist sooner or later creates a false opposition group to disperse the enemy. What's interesting is that most of the time you don't know for sure if someone is on (((their))) leash but in this case you know for sure that JP2 the apostate founded them. How much more obvious can it get? 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #37 on: October 03, 2022, 11:50:42 AM »
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  • Hopefully the explanation for the many "yes" answers is that people haven't thought it through.

    Possibly.  By accident in another poll, I found out that you can "remove" your vote and re-vote. So, if there are some who wish to change their vote, they could do so.


    Offline Melanie

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #38 on: October 03, 2022, 11:57:52 AM »
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  • Hopefully the explanation for the many "yes" answers is that people haven't thought it through.

    The indult is controlled opposition. Every powerful strategist sooner or later creates a false opposition group to disperse the enemy. What's interesting is that most of the time you don't know for sure if someone is on (((their))) leash but in this case you know for sure that JP2 the apostate founded them. How much more obvious can it get?
    I can not wrap my head around how you can suspect the indult of being controlled opposition but not SSPX.  I suspect SSPX was set up almost like a release valve, so that the really well catechized and truly devout (maybe also a little less submissive to proper authority) could have somewhere to just attend Mass without necessarily considering the logical conclusion that no Pope could have done this to the Church and the Mass, as it would necessitate he propagate heresy, which the Holy Ghost impeccably guards against, and the Church must be sede vacante.

    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #39 on: October 03, 2022, 11:59:27 AM »
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  • So, I ask again:  what are they doing to change the Church [from the inside]? If they are "tongue tied" [and we know that the indult groups are required to remain silent on Vatican II] how are they effecting change?
    I agree with some of what you're saying. While I attend icksp because of locality I support the sspx in principle a lot more than icksp or fssp. However I do not think icksp or fssp do no good whatsoever for the cause of tradition. I believe they at least bring people out of attending the novus ordo mass and for the most part teach actual catholocism, at least much more so than your average novus ordo. Many people attending the novus ordo are afraid to attend sspx or other chapels because they fear its schismatic. But they will attend icksp or fssp. Then after some time, the may be a lot more likely to attend the sspx or another chapel. I guess I hold to the theory of the sspx and other trad chapels and groups fighting from the outside of the official structures while the indult groups fight on the inside in a different way. But now that Francis and company are doing everything they can to get rid of the tlm, this strategy may no longer work. Again this is just mh opinion. I am beyond confused these days. I've actually been considering switching to an eastern rite.
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #40 on: October 03, 2022, 12:13:57 PM »
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  • I guess I hold to the theory of the sspx and other trad chapels and groups fighting from the outside of the official structures while the indult groups fight on the inside in a different way.
    I'm sorry, how can an army that is lead by the enemy commander be fighting the enemy?

    The only way is to claim that the commander has no authority but is still somehow their commander as the SSPX does but the FSSP actually acknowledges Francis as their legitimate superior and would even dissolve at his command I suspect. Not that he would do that to such a valuable asset to his side.


    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #41 on: October 03, 2022, 12:19:53 PM »
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  • I can not wrap my head around how you can suspect the indult of being controlled opposition but not SSPX.  I suspect SSPX was set up almost like a release valve, so that the really well catechized and truly devout (maybe also a little less submissive to proper authority) could have somewhere to just attend Mass without necessarily considering the logical conclusion that no Pope could have done this to the Church and the Mass, as it would necessitate he propagate heresy, which the Holy Ghost impeccably guards against, and the Church must be sede vacante.
    It is a false opposition as in not being the true position. However, it was founded by +Lefebvre and he was sincere and rejected the heresies of Vatican II and stuck to tradition. I honestly think +Lefebvre was called by God to found the society but that doesn't mean everything he did was right.

    You cannot claim the FSSP and SSPX are on the same level of unorthodox and you can't call it controlled opposition because it isn't controlled. You can call it false, schismatic or whatever but it is not controlled. Yet.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #42 on: October 03, 2022, 12:34:02 PM »
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  •  I am beyond confused these days. I've actually been considering switching to an eastern rite.
    Not getting too wrapped up in all the bs will help unconfuse you.

    If you know you have a valid trad priest, then Deo Gratias because you have more than many, and with that you have enough to save your soul. And with that *if* you do not save your soul, you will have only yourself to blame. 

    If you don't know, then find out. Sometimes that means asking the priest himself. But avoid all the extraneous crap and get right to the business at hand, saving your soul.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #43 on: October 03, 2022, 12:43:29 PM »
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  • Not getting too wrapped up in all the bs will help unconfuse you.

    If you know you have a valid trad priest, then Deo Gratias because you have more than many, and with that you have enough to save your soul. And with that *if* you do not save your soul, you will have only yourself to blame.

    If you don't know, then find out. Sometimes that means asking the priest himself. But avoid all the extraneous crap and get right to the business at hand, saving your soul. 
    It's ICKSP so 99% not a real priest. He should still ask to make sure though.

    If he's not valid God will still provide you enough graces through the rosary, perfect contrition, etc. but going to confession is still a must.

    Offline Melanie

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #44 on: October 03, 2022, 12:46:01 PM »
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  • It is a false opposition as in not being the true position. However, it was founded by +Lefebvre and he was sincere and rejected the heresies of Vatican II and stuck to tradition. I honestly think +Lefebvre was called by God to found the society but that doesn't mean everything he did was right.

    You cannot claim the FSSP and SSPX are on the same level of unorthodox and you can't call it controlled opposition because it isn't controlled. You can call it false, schismatic or whatever but it is not controlled. Yet.
    In another comment you mention, “The only way is to claim that the commander has no authority but is still somehow their commander as the SSPX does but the FSSP actually acknowledges Francis as their legitimate superior and would even dissolve at his command I suspect.”  I agree that both have a false position however, it is a more Catholic position to dissolve at the command of the Pope if you do believe he is the Pope and I’m sure many religious orders have done just that.  Not SSPX because they deny the authority of the Pope, which is Church dogma.  By the nature of controlled opposition you can not always know it is controlled so I don’t know why you dismiss my suspicion so confidently but hold your own.  This is not a good time for cults of personality; we lost our Pope and +Lefebvre did not want to acknowledge that?  He could have been wrong but he also could have been controlled opposition.