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Poll

Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?

Yes
16 (32%)
No
28 (56%)
Don't know
6 (12%)

Total Members Voted: 48

Author Topic: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?  (Read 3885 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

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Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2022, 02:11:33 PM »
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  • No.

    Generally, those who attend the Indult/diocesan Mass will also view the Novus Ordo as perfectly legitimate and have no real qualms outside of accidental preference, aka "smells and bells", and don't have much notion of the substantial differences which make the NOM not even a Catholic rite, let alone Mass. They accept the counter Church and its teachings as legitimate, placing them outside the realm of Catholic tradition, orthodoxy, in the Novus Ordo modernist heterodoxy. So how exactly are they adhering to traditional Catholicism by adhering to the New Church?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #16 on: October 02, 2022, 05:18:26 PM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre had permission to consecrate one bishop and instead he consecrated four.  So, after years of trying to have an 'experiment with Tradition', Pope Saint John Paul II the Great instead excommunicated +Lefebvre and his four bishops.  Almost instantaneously, he then introduced/allowed the formation of the FSSP from among the former SSPX clergy who thought +Lefebvre had gone too far. 

    The reason for its existence is/was to pull adherents away from the SSPX (like establishing parishes everywhere the SSPX is set up) and the archbishop said to stay away from them (I don't have that quote handy but maybe someone here could help out).  Though there are many pious laymen and well-intentioned priests in the FSSP, the organization itself wasn't/isn't about Doctrine but about the Latin Mass and was off track from the beginning.

    My vote is No.
    I do believe there are more fssp/icksp priests than we think who reject the new mass and vatican 2 but believe they should fight from the inside as they see it. Or maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part. I know of some who hold the novus ordo as valid and limit but deficient and shouldn't exist. They also believe vatican 2 isn't infallible so they tend to ignore it. I watched a video where Fr. Ripperger said vatican 2 is not infallible and there are errors in it. He mentioned religious liberty as an example. Regardless of all this, a big problem is that they're tongue tied. My icksp priests speaks out about nothing. It's frustrating. 
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #17 on: October 02, 2022, 06:43:39 PM »
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  • I do believe there are more fssp/icksp priests than we think who reject the new mass and vatican 2 but believe they should fight from the inside as they see it. 
    Sure, but based on the near 50/50 split of 'for or against', it seems most people have no clue as to why the Fraternity was allowed to exist.  It's raison d'etre is to be a wedge in 'tradition'.  John Paul II the Great established the FSSP right after excommunicating +Lefebvre and his bishops.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #18 on: October 02, 2022, 06:48:24 PM »
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  • So, the fact that we have as many people saying Yes as No, that's a very sad commentary on how little people actually understand the crisis ... and on a Traditional Catholic forum no less.  To vote that way, one has to be a "smells and bells traditionalist" and I didn't know we had that many here.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #19 on: October 02, 2022, 07:12:07 PM »
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  • I know this isn't the point, but the idea of a traditional Catholic movement is a purely political idea. Movements do things and go places. Traditionalists should, by definition, resist 'movement.' I do not regard myself as part of any traditionalist movement, but I DEFINITELY would regard the indult as part of a traditional Catholic movement. They are highly political and constantly attempting to 'change the Church.'
    .
    Indult types are not only PART of the traditional movement, I'd say they ARE the traditional movement. The rest of us take a traditionalist POSITION, which is different.

    Sorry Mith, I must strongly disagree with you here. The indult types generally believe the NO is valid and grudgingly acceptable, just not preferable. This to me is part of a defining attribute of the term Traditionalist. To further my case, most indulterers believe that JPII was a stalwart of tradition, especially in the age of Bergoglio. Most have no problem with the changes in the sacraments or the validity of the NO “holy” orders. Most venerate all the NO “saints”.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #20 on: October 02, 2022, 07:23:28 PM »
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  • I didn't know we had that many here.
    I'm right there with you.  Let's just say I'm extremely surprised (extremely surprised) that there's a 50/50 response to this on a traditional/SSPX based forum.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #21 on: October 02, 2022, 08:02:25 PM »
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  • How many priests in the "indult" groups are even ordained in the Old Rite by bishops consecrated in the Old Rite?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #22 on: October 02, 2022, 08:13:02 PM »
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  • How many priests in the "indult" groups are even ordained in the Old Rite by bishops consecrated in the Old Rite?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #23 on: October 02, 2022, 09:17:36 PM »
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  • The Jorge-anathematized indult was bound to Ratzinger's Missal of 2008 including the @#$%! Novus Ordo calendar.

    Since when is a 14-year-old rite "traditional"?

    Offline Melanie

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #24 on: October 02, 2022, 09:30:57 PM »
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  • They accept the counter Church and its teachings as legitimate, placing them outside the realm of Catholic tradition, orthodoxy, in the Novus Ordo modernist heterodoxy. So how exactly are they adhering to traditional Catholicism by adhering to the New Church?
    Correct me if I am wrong but aren’t Council Docuмents really meant for the consumption of the bishops and priests of the Church more so than the laity? I feel like many Catholics are legitimately not knowledgeable about the heresies in Vatican II docuмents and therefore have made no investigation into why this is so, nor the implications.  People are busy raising their families and many may not do a great deal of reading; it doesn’t mean they are lazy, malicious or stupid, but not being a towering intellect is not a sin.  Maybe some of these people weren’t pleased with the abuses and errors and heresy that they saw in their New Order church, and somehow, not sure how these Indult Masses are generally found, but they found it and they didn’t see these abuses and errors so they just go to Mass there now.  Simple as that.  When I was in the New Order, I saw many abuses and errors and I often left church going, -Man, I’m pretty sure that was heresy or sacrilege,- but I legitimately believed that my priests were just bad priests.  It never even occurred to me that it was anything more than that until Jorge burst on the scene.  I just don’t see how a Catholic who believes what the Church has always taught is not in the traditional Catholic movement but as I’ve said before, I don’t care about the traditional Catholic movement; they’d be Catholic even if they are deprived of the Sacraments through the malice of evil men.  What is this “movement” supposed to mean anyway?  Movement to do what?  

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #25 on: October 02, 2022, 10:36:22 PM »
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  • The Jorge-anathematized indult was bound to Ratzinger's Missal of 2008 including the @#$%! Novus Ordo calendar.

    Since when is a 14-year-old rite "traditional"?

    Not quite understanding what you mean here, sorry.  Every indult/Ecclesia Dei/Summorum pontificuм Mass I've ever heard of, uses the 1962 missal and the calendar that goes with it.  The "-gesima" Sundays prior to Lent, Ember Days, traditional solemnities on their proper dates, they're all there.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #26 on: October 03, 2022, 07:01:39 AM »
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  • Correct me if I am wrong but aren’t Council Docuмents really meant for the consumption of the bishops and priests of the Church more so than the laity? I feel like many Catholics are legitimately not knowledgeable about the heresies in Vatican II docuмents and therefore have made no investigation into why this is so, nor the implications.  People are busy raising their families and many may not do a great deal of reading; it doesn’t mean they are lazy, malicious or stupid, but not being a towering intellect is not a sin.  Maybe some of these people weren’t pleased with the abuses and errors and heresy that they saw in their New Order church, and somehow, not sure how these Indult Masses are generally found, but they found it and they didn’t see these abuses and errors so they just go to Mass there now.  Simple as that.  When I was in the New Order, I saw many abuses and errors and I often left church going, -Man, I’m pretty sure that was heresy or sacrilege,- but I legitimately believed that my priests were just bad priests.  It never even occurred to me that it was anything more than that until Jorge burst on the scene.  I just don’t see how a Catholic who believes what the Church has always taught is not in the traditional Catholic movement but as I’ve said before, I don’t care about the traditional Catholic movement; they’d be Catholic even if they are deprived of the Sacraments through the malice of evil men.  What is this “movement” supposed to mean anyway?  Movement to do what? 
    Yes, perhaps this needs to be defined somehow with specific characteristics.  What was the OP thinking when he asked it.  The poll results might be a reflection of not enough info.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #27 on: October 03, 2022, 07:09:52 AM »
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  • I do believe there are more fssp/icksp priests than we think who reject the new mass and vatican 2 but believe they should fight from the inside as they see it. Or maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part. I know of some who hold the novus ordo as valid and limit but deficient and shouldn't exist. They also believe vatican 2 isn't infallible so they tend to ignore it. I watched a video where Fr. Ripperger said vatican 2 is not infallible and there are errors in it. He mentioned religious liberty as an example. Regardless of all this, a big problem is that they're tongue tied. My icksp priests speaks out about nothing. It's frustrating.
    So, I ask again:  what are they doing to change the Church [from the inside]? If they are "tongue tied" [and we know that the indult groups are required to remain silent on Vatican II] how are they effecting change?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #28 on: October 03, 2022, 07:43:53 AM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre had permission to consecrate one bishop and instead he consecrated four.  So, after years of trying to have an 'experiment with Tradition', Pope Saint John Paul II the Great instead excommunicated +Lefebvre and his four bishops.  Almost instantaneously, he then introduced/allowed the formation of the FSSP from among the former SSPX clergy who thought +Lefebvre had gone too far. 

    The reason for its existence is/was to pull adherents away from the SSPX (like establishing parishes everywhere the SSPX is set up) and the archbishop said to stay away from them (I don't have that quote handy but maybe someone here could help out).  Though there are many pious laymen and well-intentioned priests in the FSSP, the organization itself wasn't/isn't about Doctrine but about the Latin Mass and was off track from the beginning.

    My vote is No.
    This is pretty much the way it is. Although he did not have permission, rather he was forbidden to consecrate any, not even one. He decided to go ahead with the consecrations once he was convinced that they would never give his SSPX a bishop, let alone bishops to insure future valid ordinations after he died.

    It was the very next day that the FSSP was born, using some SSPX seminarians and I think a few SSPX priests also went along. The FSSP still do not have even one bishop to call their own. In those days the belief was that they would "make changes from within" and we see how that worked out.

    Here is a sermon about the crooks and the consecrations, given by Fr. Wathen a day or two after the consecrations in 1988.
     

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Does the Indult comprise part of the traditional Catholic movement?
    « Reply #29 on: October 03, 2022, 07:46:56 AM »
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  • Sure, but based on the near 50/50 split of 'for or against', it seems most people have no clue as to why the Fraternity was allowed to exist.  It's raison d'etre is to be a wedge in 'tradition'.  John Paul II the Great established the FSSP right after excommunicating +Lefebvre and his bishops. 
    Hopefully that is sarcasm, because "The Great" or a "Saint" he is not.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed