Author Topic: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics?? (Read 4772 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #30 on:** March 09, 2022, 06:48:42 PM »

There can be no presumption of heresy due to mere belonging to the Conciliar Church precisely because the Conciliar Church masquerades as the Catholic Church. Every Catholic on any side of the Great Western Schism intended to adhere to the Catholic Church and professed adherence and submission to the Catholic Church. There are many in the NO who profess that it is required to submit to the Magisterium as their rule of faith, and that's the essence of having the formal rule of faith, even if they happen to be materially incorrect on what that Magisterium teaches. So there can be no presumption or assumption that someone who belongs to the Conciliar Church is a non-Catholic or a heretic. In fact, unless one has contrary information about any given individual, charity requires that we give them the benefit of the doubt. If someone's an NO Catholic, there's an extremely high degree of "suspicion" that they're heretics, since the vast majority of them are, but that suspicion alone doesn't suffice to exclude them from the Church.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #31 on:** March 09, 2022, 06:53:07 PM »

Quote from: Matthew on March 09, 2022, 11:37:16 AM

This.

This is the logical conclusion, though, from Sedevacantists. They have deposed the pope, the hierarchy, and the whole Church. It's a fine line perhaps, but a line one must not cross nonetheless.

If you are saying the Pope is a formal heretic, the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church "full stop", they are all heretics "full stop", then you wonder about stuff like this -- should I associate with them? Can I pray with them? etc.

If you ask me, it's another argument against Sedevacantism. A reductio ad absurdam if you will.

And I should point out: most Sedevacantists are also Hierarchy-vacantist and Ecclesiavacantist. It is NEVER just the Pope they condemn and completely reject as 100% heretical.

Well, many of the dogmatic sedevacantists think this way, but, generally speaking, the moderate ones do not. Sedevacantism is driven not by the question of Jorge Berogliogo's personal orthodoxy. Question is whether the Magisterium could teach this degree of error and whether the Church could promulgate a Rite of Mass that displeases God and harms souls. Whether that means full sedevacantism, sedeprivationism, or even Father Chazal's position that their heresy strips them of teaching authority, that's debatable.

I disagree that most SVs are ecclesiavacantists. You can count the dogmatic ones (the anti-"una cuм" folks on a couple of hands). By far the vast majority hold to something akin to sedeprivationism.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #32 on:** March 09, 2022, 06:56:59 PM »

Would I pray with Jorge Bergoglio? No, absolutely not. But I'd have no issue, say, praying a Rosary in common with a group of Conciliar Catholics, with the Rosary being almost a shibboleth indicating that they still have the faith.

Some of that depends on the context as well. I would pray with them privately, but I would never go into their church and join some kind of NO prayer service, because, as a group, and as an institution, it's true that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.

Philothea3 · « **Reply #33 on:** March 09, 2022, 07:37:38 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on March 09, 2022, 06:56:59 PM

Would I pray with Jorge Bergoglio? No, absolutely not. But I'd have no issue, say, praying a Rosary in common with a group of Conciliar Catholics, with the Rosary being almost a shibboleth indicating that they still have the faith.

Some of that depends on the context as well. I would pray with them privately, but I would never go into their church and join some kind of NO prayer service, because, as a group, and as an institution, it's true that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.

So what you're saying is: you'll pray with the followers of the conciliar church but not the leaders?

Mark 79 · « **Reply #34 on:** March 09, 2022, 07:56:51 PM »

Quote from: Philothea3 on March 09, 2022, 07:37:38 PM

So what you're saying is: you'll pray with the followers of the conciliar church but not the leaders?

I argue that Jorge is NOT in the Church. How could he be the earthly leader of the Church to which he does not belong?

https://judaism.is/jorge.html

He is just "subsisting in" the Chair of Peter.

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Author Topic: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics?? (Read 4772 times)

Ladislaus

Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??

Ladislaus

Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??

Ladislaus

Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??

Philothea3

Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??

Mark 79

Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??