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Author Topic: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??  (Read 3954 times)

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Offline Mithrandylan

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Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2022, 01:56:04 PM »
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    • The Church's nature makes her easy to find, but extrinsic factors can make her difficult to find. Plainly put, the ease with which one finds the Church has lots to do with WHERE the Church is physically/geographically. Tell the millions of American Indians at any time prior to the sixteenth century the Church is 'easy to find.' Sure, for Europeans. There are times/places in history where at least for some people, the Church is difficult to find. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #16 on: March 09, 2022, 01:59:29 PM »
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    • If God ponders aloud rhetorically whether or not He will find Faith, I'm thinking he Faith will be REALLY hard to find.
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #17 on: March 09, 2022, 04:44:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on March 09, 2022, 01:45:40 PM
    Difficult to reconcile with the situation at His Second Coming:[...]

    Since both must be true, I see only one way to reconcile the two: that for a time the Church "cannot be hid," but by the time of the "cries of the elect" and His Second Coming the Faith will be hard to find, no longer that city on a mountain.

    Do you see another way of reconciling the two?

    Quote from: Mark 79 on March 09, 2022, 01:59:29 PM
    If God ponders aloud rhetorically whether or not He will find Faith, I'm thinking he Faith will be REALLY hard to find.

    All I can say is that no one knows when the Second Coming will take place.  IIRC, even St. Paul thought it may be during his lifetime?  Nor am I competent to subjectively hold an opinion as to whether we are at, or even near, the Second Coming.  Yeah, things are bad now, but they can--and most likely will--be much, much worse.  So, as I see it, that city seated on the mountain is still there, unhidden.
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    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #18 on: March 09, 2022, 05:00:47 PM »
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    • I have no idea if the recent replies have anything to do with my question :sleep:
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #19 on: March 09, 2022, 05:04:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Philothea3 on March 09, 2022, 05:00:47 PM
    I have no idea if the recent replies have anything to do with my question :sleep:

    Your question was answered on the first page.  What else do you need to know?
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #20 on: March 09, 2022, 05:12:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on March 09, 2022, 04:44:31 PM
    All I can say is that no one knows when the Second Coming will take place.  IIRC, even St. Paul thought it may be during his lifetime?  Nor am I competent to subjectively hold an opinion as to whether we are at, or even near, the Second Coming.  Yeah, things are bad now, but they can--and most likely will--be much, much worse.  So, as I see it, that city seated on the mountain is still there, unhidden.

    I too cannot offer a dispositive opinion, but I'd buy "currently unhidden, but shriveling and perhaps in extremīs."
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    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #21 on: March 09, 2022, 05:42:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on March 09, 2022, 05:04:36 PM
    Your question was answered on the first page.  What else do you need to know?
    Not really. Are V2 docuмents considered a heretical docuмents? Doesn't it make people who believe it heretics? (religious freedom etc.) Someone brought up judge by behaviours, well the N.O. people clearly go to N.O. with no problem too or even "communion service" and believe it's the congregation that makes the consecration happens...

    Maybe let me ask this way, do you think it's fine to pray Rosary with, say, a protestant? 
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #22 on: March 09, 2022, 05:51:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Philothea3 on March 09, 2022, 05:00:47 PM
    I have no idea if the recent replies have anything to do with my question :sleep:
    Your question,  Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??, demands a Yes/No answer. My answer is NO. Many NO/Vat2 Catholics have no heretical thoughts or intentions or ill will. They simply don't know the truth of what has happened in the Church.

    In most threads, unless they gave a very short life span, will lead, through an association of ideas, to other fruitful but related discussion. If you are interested in other fruitful discussion, hang around this thread, otherwise push on to something that won't put you to sleep.
    :popcorn:
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #23 on: March 09, 2022, 05:56:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Philothea3 on March 09, 2022, 05:42:56 PM
    Not really. Are V2 considered a heretical docuмent? Then doesn't it make people who believe it heretics? Someone brought up judge by behaviours, well the N.O. people clearly go to N.O. with no problem too or even "communion service" and believe it's the congregation that makes the consecration happens...
    The problem here is between formal heresy and material heresy. A formal heretic would be a Lutheran or Eastern Orthodox who explicitly denies one or more dogmas of the Church. By extension, many of our recent "Popes" have done this. Whereas the majority of Novus Ordo attendees would only be material heretics because they are ignorant of the dogmas that they may implicitly deny; in the case of Vatican II, the teachings on religious liberty.

    So, again, to answer your question, NO, those who attend Novus Ordo are not (formal) heretics and you CAN pray with them.
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    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #24 on: March 09, 2022, 05:57:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on March 09, 2022, 05:51:26 PM
    Your question,  Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??, demands a Yes/No answer. My answer is NO. Many NO/Vat2 Catholics have no heretical thoughts or intentions or ill will. They simply don't know the truth of what has happened in the Church.

    In most threads, unless they gave a very short life span, will lead, through an association of ideas, to other fruitful but related discussion. If you are interested in other fruitful discussion, hang around this thread, otherwise push on to something that won't put you to sleep.
    :popcorn:
    Looks like it makes sense at the first look, but you can basically use the same logic for literally any heretics, or at least the followers of a heresy if not the inventors? Most likely they probably don't know the truth instead of knowing but denying.
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    - St Francis de Assisi

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #25 on: March 09, 2022, 06:03:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Philothea3 on March 09, 2022, 05:42:56 PM
    Not really. Are V2 docuмents considered a heretical docuмents?
     Considered by whom? It is not laymen who make such condemnations. We can have opinions but not rights to make declarations.

    Doesn't it make people who believe it heretics? (religious freedom etc.)

    Someone brought up judge by behaviours, well the N.O. people clearly go to N.O. with no problem too or even "communion service" and believe it's the congregation that makes the consecration happens...
    You assume that all NO Mass attenders believe what you write? You are making assumptions about what they believe.
    Besides because people have been poorly instructed in the Faith does not mean they are heretics.

    Maybe let me ask this way, do you think it's fine to pray Rosary with, say, a protestant?
    There is no reason not to say the Rosary with a protestant. In fact it is commendable, provided you do not introduce, or tolerate, novelties like the Luminous Mysteries.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #26 on: March 09, 2022, 06:12:24 PM »
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    • Protestants and other heretics are well aware they are NOT Catholic and don't want to be.
     Most Novus Ordo Catholics believe they are Catholics in good standing and have not rejected the Church as they understand it. In fact many cling to the NO because they believe they will spiritually perish outside what they think is the "barque of Peter" and that leaving it in its "passion" would be a detriment to their souls. The ambiguity and error of what is placed on them to try and absorb can't completely be their fault.
    Yes, they have bought the lie hook line and sinker, but who can question their intentions? 
     Anyone who really understands what Vll and the Consilliar church is fully about yet still remains in it functionally, may be guilty of a form of heresy. Not sure 
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #27 on: March 09, 2022, 06:15:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Philothea3 on March 09, 2022, 05:42:56 PM
    Not really. Are V2 docuмents considered a heretical docuмents? Doesn't it make people who believe it heretics? (religious freedom etc.) Someone brought up judge by behaviours, well the N.O. people clearly go to N.O. with no problem too or even "communion service" and believe it's the congregation that makes the consecration happens...

    Maybe let me ask this way, do you think it's fine to pray Rosary with, say, a protestant?
    In reply #3, DL brought up the distinction (material vs. formal heresy) that is necessary to answer your question.

    Giving some examples may help: praying with your N.O. Aunt, who doesn't even know what N.O. means but is trying to be Catholic,

    vs.

    joining in a public Rosary procession with (Frs?) James Martin and Michael Pfleger.
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    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #28 on: March 09, 2022, 06:38:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Emile on March 09, 2022, 06:15:17 PM
    In reply #3, DL brought up the distinction (material vs. formal heresy) that is necessary to answer your question.

    Giving some examples may help: praying with your N.O. Aunt, who doesn't even know what N.O. means but is trying to be Catholic,

    vs.

    joining in a public Rosary procession with (Frs?) James Martin and Michael Pfleger.
    Rosary procession with (Frs?) James Martin can be a bit too much, but is it bad because he's a public scandal, vs. you just know by yourself that he's a heretic? I mean usually in a N.O./diocesan Rosary group you don't know what those people are believing. And the whole material vs. formal heresy thing brings up a whole thing with sedevacantism which is so much more complicated. 
    Also someone mentioned it's even good to pray Rosary with a prot, then I guess it's actually also good to pray with (Frs?) James Martini or whoever.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #29 on: March 09, 2022, 06:38:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on March 09, 2022, 10:27:35 AM
    They have not been formally condemned as a group to be heretics, so no. The people making up the NO are at worst material heretics.

    Now, if you know individuals who are formal heretics, by all means avoid praying with them.

    THIS^^^^ (with one exception).  Generally speaking, those in the NO believe that they are Catholics and have not therefore professed separation from the Catholic Church.  That is what makes the NO heresy even more insidious.  It's not like, "I'm going to become Greek Orthodox."  People still profess adherence to the Catholic Church.

    No, "at worst" there are many formal heretics in the Novus Ordo.  I would venture to say that 95% of them are.  By their own polls, the vast majority of them reject one or another Catholic dogma, that they know to be dogma, because the mentality of the NO is their feeling entitled to be "cafeteria" Catholics, which basically is formal heresy, since they do not accept the teaching of the Church as their formal rule of faith (THAT is what "formal heresy" means ... and has nothing to do with "sincerity").
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