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Author Topic: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??  (Read 3944 times)

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Offline Philothea3

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Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
« on: March 08, 2022, 06:41:16 PM »
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #1 on: March 09, 2022, 10:01:29 AM »
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    • Bishop Williamson says they are Catholic- so I would be careful on things like the "illuminati" mysteries and the Divine mercy, but I would think praying with them, as in the Rosary, would be ok.
    I don't think we have the right to call them heretics, just lost.
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #2 on: March 09, 2022, 10:22:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on March 09, 2022, 10:01:29 AM
    I don't think we have the right to call them heretics, just lost.

    On an individual basis, there are a good number within the Novus Ordo who, by their very words and actions, are heretics.  Some would argue the same regarding certain members within "Trad" circles.
     However, as a blanket statement covering every Catholic attending the Novus Ordo, I agree with the above statement.  Unless, of course, someone here has the gift of being able to read everyone's soul.   

    If someone is clearly, and proudly, living as a heretic, then don't pray with them. 
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #3 on: March 09, 2022, 10:27:35 AM »
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    • They have not been formally condemned as a group to be heretics, so no. The people making up the NO are at worst material heretics.

    Now, if you know individuals who are formal heretics, by all means avoid praying with them.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #4 on: March 09, 2022, 10:30:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on March 09, 2022, 10:01:29 AM
    Bishop Williamson says they are Catholic- so I would be careful on things like the "illuminati" mysteries and the Divine mercy, but I would think praying with them, as in the Rosary, would be ok.
    I don't think we have the right to call them heretics, just lost.

    I agree. They aren't always aware that they are going against true Church teachings - after all, it's not like they hear true Church teaching from the pulpit. But then again, some of them would be angry if they heard true Church teaching from the pulpit. They are lost, but don't really know it.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #5 on: March 09, 2022, 10:37:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on March 09, 2022, 10:22:46 AM
    On an individual basis, there are a good number within the Novus Ordo who, by their very words and actions, are heretics.  Some would argue the same regarding certain members within "Trad" circles.
     However, as a blanket statement covering every Catholic attending the Novus Ordo, I agree with the above statement.  Unless, of course, someone here has the gift of being able to read everyone's soul. 

    If someone is clearly, and proudly, living as a heretic, then don't pray with them.
    Wait, how do one act as a heretic?
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    THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, so that we may love you with all our heart, by always having you in mind; with all our soul, by always longing for you; with all our mind, by determining to seek your glory in everything; and with all our strength, of body and soul... 
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    Offline trento

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #6 on: March 09, 2022, 10:56:49 AM »
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    • Dogmatic sedevacantists that claims Catholics cannot attend "una cuм" Masses says yes.
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    Offline Francis Xavier

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #7 on: March 09, 2022, 11:17:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Philothea3 on March 09, 2022, 10:37:01 AM
    Wait, how do one act as a heretic?
    Like attending Protestant “masses,” praying together with the heretics and schismatics, celebrating Hanukkah or kissing the Koran?
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #8 on: March 09, 2022, 11:22:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Philothea3 on March 09, 2022, 10:37:01 AM
    Wait, how do one act as a heretic?

    God granted you an intellect; use it.

    If someone tells you, or publicly states, something that is clearly antithetical to Church teaching (e.g., "My wife is on the pill because we already have three kids and we don't believe the Church can tell us what to do,"), then it shouldn't be too difficult to ascertain that they're a heretic and it would be best to avoid them, let alone pray with them. (OR.... gasp.... inform them of their error.)
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #9 on: March 09, 2022, 11:37:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on March 09, 2022, 10:27:35 AM
    They have not been formally condemned as a group to be heretics, so no. The people making up the NO are at worst material heretics.

    Now, if you know individuals who are formal heretics, by all means avoid praying with them.

    This.

    This is the logical conclusion, though, from Sedevacantists. They have deposed the pope, the hierarchy, and the whole Church. It's a fine line perhaps, but a line one must not cross nonetheless.

    If you are saying the Pope is a formal heretic, the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church "full stop", they are all heretics "full stop", then you wonder about stuff like this -- should I associate with them? Can I pray with them? etc.

    If you ask me, it's another argument against Sedevacantism. A reductio ad absurdam if you will.

    And I should point out: most Sedevacantists are also Hierarchy-vacantist and Ecclesiavacantist. It is NEVER just the Pope they condemn and completely reject as 100% heretical.
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    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #10 on: March 09, 2022, 12:43:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Francis Xavier on March 09, 2022, 11:17:28 AM
    Like attending Protestant “masses,” praying together with the heretics and schismatics, celebrating Hanukkah or kissing the Koran?
    Well then obviously the people mentioned in the question will do some of those if not all of those
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    THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, so that we may love you with all our heart, by always having you in mind; with all our soul, by always longing for you; with all our mind, by determining to seek your glory in everything; and with all our strength, of body and soul... 
    - St Francis de Assisi

    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #11 on: March 09, 2022, 12:50:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on March 09, 2022, 10:01:29 AM
    Bishop Williamson says they are Catholic- so I would be careful on things like the "illuminati" mysteries and the Divine mercy, but I would think praying with them, as in the Rosary, would be ok.
    I don't think we have the right to call them heretics, just lost.
    Yet it's ok to say Pope Francis is a heretic? Hmm...
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    THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, so that we may love you with all our heart, by always having you in mind; with all our soul, by always longing for you; with all our mind, by determining to seek your glory in everything; and with all our strength, of body and soul... 
    - St Francis de Assisi

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #12 on: March 09, 2022, 12:57:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on March 09, 2022, 11:37:16 AM
    …They have deposed the pope, the hierarchy, and the whole Church.…

    The anti-Popes depose themselves "automatically."

    The hierarchy is deposed only insofar as invalid acts/consecrations of an anti-Pope and any invalid "sacraments" promulgated by an anti-Pope.

    The whole Church is indefectible. It may be small and hard to find (Luke 18:8), but it cannot defect or be deposed.


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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #13 on: March 09, 2022, 01:22:44 PM »
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    • In Matthew 5:13-16, Jesus says his Church would be like "[a] city seated on a mountain..." that cannot be hid, and thus, not hard to find.   
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #14 on: March 09, 2022, 01:45:40 PM »
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    • Quote
    You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men. [14] You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid. Matthew 5:13-14

    Difficult to reconcile with the situation at His Second Coming:

    Quote
    And will not God revenge his elect who cry to him day and night: and will he have patience in their regard? [8] I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth? Luke 18:7-8

    Since both must be true, I see only one way to reconcile the two: that for a time the Church "cannot be hid," but by the time of the "cries of the elect" and His Second Coming the Faith will be hard to find, no longer that city on a mountain.

    Do you see another way of reconciling the two?

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