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Author Topic: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??  (Read 3945 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2022, 06:48:42 PM »
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  • There can be no presumption of heresy due to mere belonging to the Conciliar Church precisely because the Conciliar Church masquerades as the Catholic Church.  Every Catholic on any side of the Great Western Schism intended to adhere to the Catholic Church and professed adherence and submission to the Catholic Church.  There are many in the NO who profess that it is required to submit to the Magisterium as their rule of faith, and that's the essence of having the formal rule of faith, even if they happen to be materially incorrect on what that Magisterium teaches.  So there can be no presumption or assumption that someone who belongs to the Conciliar Church is a non-Catholic or a heretic.  In fact, unless one has contrary information about any given individual, charity requires that we give them the benefit of the doubt.  If someone's an NO Catholic, there's an extremely high degree of "suspicion" that they're heretics, since the vast majority of them are, but that suspicion alone doesn't suffice to exclude them from the Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #31 on: March 09, 2022, 06:53:07 PM »
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  • This.

    This is the logical conclusion, though, from Sedevacantists. They have deposed the pope, the hierarchy, and the whole Church. It's a fine line perhaps, but a line one must not cross nonetheless.

    If you are saying the Pope is a formal heretic, the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church "full stop", they are all heretics "full stop", then you wonder about stuff like this -- should I associate with them? Can I pray with them? etc.

    If you ask me, it's another argument against Sedevacantism. A reductio ad absurdam if you will.

    And I should point out: most Sedevacantists are also Hierarchy-vacantist and Ecclesiavacantist. It is NEVER just the Pope they condemn and completely reject as 100% heretical.

    Well, many of the dogmatic sedevacantists think this way, but, generally speaking, the moderate ones do not.  Sedevacantism is driven not by the question of Jorge Berogliogo's personal orthodoxy.  Question is whether the Magisterium could teach this degree of error and whether the Church could promulgate a Rite of Mass that displeases God and harms souls.  Whether that means full sedevacantism, sedeprivationism, or even Father Chazal's position that their heresy strips them of teaching authority, that's debatable.

    I disagree that most SVs are ecclesiavacantists.  You can count the dogmatic ones (the anti-"una cuм" folks on a couple of hands).  By far the vast majority hold to something akin to sedeprivationism.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #32 on: March 09, 2022, 06:56:59 PM »
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  • Would I pray with Jorge Bergoglio?  No, absolutely not.  But I'd have no issue, say, praying a Rosary in common with a group of Conciliar Catholics, with the Rosary being almost a shibboleth indicating that they still have the faith.

    Some of that depends on the context as well.  I would pray with them privately, but I would never go into their church and join some kind of NO prayer service, because, as a group, and as an institution, it's true that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.

    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #33 on: March 09, 2022, 07:37:38 PM »
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  • Would I pray with Jorge Bergoglio?  No, absolutely not.  But I'd have no issue, say, praying a Rosary in common with a group of Conciliar Catholics, with the Rosary being almost a shibboleth indicating that they still have the faith.

    Some of that depends on the context as well.  I would pray with them privately, but I would never go into their church and join some kind of NO prayer service, because, as a group, and as an institution, it's true that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.
    So what you're saying is: you'll pray with the followers of the conciliar church but not the leaders?
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #34 on: March 09, 2022, 07:56:51 PM »
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  • So what you're saying is: you'll pray with the followers of the conciliar church but not the leaders?
    I argue that Jorge is NOT in the Church. How could he be the earthly leader of the Church to which he does not belong?

    https://judaism.is/jorge.html 

    He is just "subsisting in" the Chair of Peter. :laugh2:


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #35 on: March 09, 2022, 08:04:38 PM »
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  • He is just "subsisting in" the Chair of Peter. :laugh2:

    "Subsisting in"  :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #36 on: March 09, 2022, 08:34:13 PM »
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  • Looks like it makes sense at the first look, but you can basically use the same logic for literally any heretics, or at least the followers of a heresy if not the inventors? Most likely they probably don't know the truth instead of knowing but denying.
    You asked if praying with NO/Vat2 Catholics amounted to heresy. I gave you my answer, which is NO. Other people have said so in various charitable ways.

    So what is the heresy that you speak of? It is the hierarchy of the Catholic Church which decides. In the meantime we do our best with what we have and what we haven't. It is not a simple laywoman, no matter how zealous she may be, who defines heresy. As much as you feel, as a neophyte, that you know best, you should learn to eat humble pie and learn from mature Catholics. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #37 on: March 09, 2022, 08:35:06 PM »
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  • :confused:
    No, it is not the same.
    If they are baptized and practicing the faith as best as they know it, then you are safe.  Just don't get sucked in to the divine mercy chaplet or other condemned prayers.


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #38 on: March 09, 2022, 08:36:24 PM »
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  • They have not been formally condemned as a group to be heretics, so no. The people making up the NO are at worst material heretics.

    Now, if you know individuals who are formal heretics, by all means avoid praying with them.
    That goes for ALL people, trads included, family included.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #39 on: March 09, 2022, 08:38:11 PM »
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  • Yet it's ok to say Pope Francis is a heretic? Hmm...
    Tradition is VERY  confusing sometimes.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #40 on: March 09, 2022, 08:54:39 PM »
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  • Yet it's ok to say Pope Francis is a heretic? Hmm...
    You wrote this in response to Josefa who said nothing about Pope Francis. I don't recall anyone else saying that either, at least on this thread. Be careful of putting words in another's mouth. 


    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

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    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #41 on: March 09, 2022, 08:55:52 PM »
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  • Tradition is VERY  confusing sometimes.
    Indeed it's confusing. If people can use the terms like "post-conciliar church" as if it's another church or say it's a new religion, meanwhile I'm getting scolded for making sure if I can pray with them. Also how is it they're not formal heretics, so praying with them in private - OK, but you can say a Pope or some clergyman is a heretic, yet not formal heretic, but praying with them - not OK. :confused:
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    - St Francis de Assisi

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #42 on: March 09, 2022, 09:10:33 PM »
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  • Indeed it's confusing. If people can use the terms like "post-conciliar church" as if it's another church or say it's a new religion, meanwhile I'm getting scolded for making sure if I can pray with them. Also how is it they're not formal heretics, so praying with them in private - OK, but you can say a Pope or some clergyman is a heretic, yet not formal heretic, but praying with them - not OK. :confused:

    I'll say it again, this time s l o w l y and LARGER.

    A – h e r e t i c – c a n n o t – b e – a – P o p e.

    Get the memo.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #43 on: March 09, 2022, 09:12:21 PM »
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  • "Subsisting in"  :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
    Thank you. I've been using that since Wojtyla the Second Worst and you are the first person (besides myself) to think its funny.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Does praying with N.O./V2 caths count as praying with heretics??
    « Reply #44 on: March 09, 2022, 09:54:35 PM »
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  • Indeed it's confusing. If people can use the terms like "post-conciliar church" as if it's another church or say it's a new religion, meanwhile I'm getting scolded for making sure if I can pray with them. Also how is it they're not formal heretics, so praying with them in private - OK, but you can say a Pope or some clergyman is a heretic, yet not formal heretic, but praying with them - not OK. :confused:
    Pope question aside, you really need to read Abp. Lefebvre's "An Open Letter to Confused Catholics", "I Accuse the Council!" and "Against the Heretics" to understand WHY we refer to it as a "post-conciliar church"

    As for heretical clergy vs laity, the clergy are public figures and speak publicly on matters of the Faith. When they are out there saying things like "all men can be saved" or promoting sodomy or that divorced and remarried couples can receive Communion., then you have a serious problem with formal heresy.

    Which is an entirely different problem than the poorly-catechised Novus Ordo friends you pray the rosary with who may or may not know that Extra Ecclesia non Salus is a Dogma of the Church and that their "nice" Evangelical, Muslim or Jєωιѕн friends will go to Hell if they do not convert.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]