COLOR HIGHLIGHT KEY FOR “cuм EX APOSTOLATUS”

1)  First YELLOW [orange]HIGHLIGHT – indicates the reason which prompted Pope Paul IV to
      promulgate this Papal Bull in the form of an Apostolic Constitution (just as
      Quo Primum was.) The Pope feared that the high degree of evil which existed
      in society during his reign would threaten the Papal Office such that it would
      usher in the start of Apocalyptic events by which the Papacy and the Hierarchy
      would be lost. Protestant infiltrators were actively entering the ranks of the clergy
      under pretenses of being Roman Catholics, but in reality intending the destruction
      of the Church from the inside as Priests, Bishops and eventually by usurping the
      Papacy. Cardinal Morone was an infiltrator known by Pope Paul IV to be a secret
      Protestant. He was extremely popular and was likely to succeed Pope Paul IV.

2)  Second YELLOW[orange] HIGHLIGHT – indicates that Pope Paul IV acted not only in his
      capacity as Pope. This would have been sufficient to clarify all of the teachings
      and enact all of the decrees contained in the docuмent. He also consulted with
      his Cardinals and obtained their unanimous approval for “cuм ex Apostolatus.”
      This docuмent was signed by Pope Paul IV and by all of the Cardinals of the
      Holy Roman Church.

3)  Third YELLOW [orange]HIGHLIGHT – contains a phrase allowing orthodox Catholics to take
      the property of heretical secular rulers as long as those taking are orthodox and
      submissive to the Roman Pontiff who has “canonically” entered the Papal Office.
      If it was not considered possible for a man to enter uncanonically, this qualifying
      phrase would not be necessary. Anyone who enters uncanonically into the Papacy
      cannot be a true Pope as Church Law stated for centuries and as the laws
      concerning Papal elections still state.

4)  Fourth YELLOW [orange]HIGHLIGHT –  speaks to the gravity of this docuмent. Such a closing
      statement by a Pope is made only in docuмents dealing with the weightiest
      matters. This is an Apostolic Curse calling down the wrath of Almighty God and
      of St. Peter and St. Paul upon anyone at all who contradicts this docuмent or
      infringes on it in any way, including prevention of its dissemination to the public    
      or frustrating the understanding of the faithful concerning its    teachings and
      decrees.

5)  The BLUE HIGHLIGHT – refers to Number 6 and all of its subordinate paragraphs
      delineated in Roman Numerals. In the first paragraph, Number 6, the Pope refers
      to the Bishops and all of the ecclesiastical dignities, including the Cardinals of the
      Holy Roman Church even up to the Roman Pontiff himself. The Pope decrees that
      all of them cannot in any way, not even partially (Paragraph iii), hold an
      ecclesiastical office validly.

      Paragraph (ii) – makes clear that the act of physical possession of the of the
            Vatican or even the appearance of possessing control of the Holy
            See does not confer Papal power nor does it confer the Papal Office.
            The Enthronement Ceremony also does not confer the Office upon
            a heretical man;

      Paragraph (iii) – declares that no one who has deviated from the Faith may hold
            Office, not even partially;
      
      Paragraph (iv) – makes clear that the Office cannot be held by a heretic either in  
            a spiritual nor in a temporal manner;

      Paragraph (v) – decrees that none of the actions of a heretical man exercising the
            ecclesiastical Office including the Roman Pontificate has any
            validity in law and none of his actions is binding in conscience on
            any member of the Church;

      Paragraph (vi) – makes abundantly clear that anyone who is elevated to
            ecclesiastical Office, including the Papacy, is automatically deposed
            from Office. In other words, his selection cannot be valid in the eyes
            of the Church nor in the eyes of God Himself. Here, the Pope
            specifically mentions that the privation of Office is automatic
            “ipso facto” and needs no further declaration of any kind, not
            even that of an ecclesiastical council.

6)  The First RED HIGHLIGHT within the BLUE HIGHLIGHT – clarifies the fact that
      one who possesses the physical administration of the Vatican and, by
      appearances, of the Holy See itself, does not possess the Papacy in any of its
      functions or manifestations from that very fact. Whatever administrative or
      teaching actions he performs are null and void even if his commands are carried
      out and his teachings heeded by others. This answers the objection that many
      raise that a man is the Pope if he physically possesses the administrative functions
      of the Church. This counts for nothing according to the decrees of Pope Paul IV.
      Such a man who has deviated from the Faith is still in no way to be considered
      the Pope even if he physically possesses the administrative functions of the
                      Church. All of his actions are legally void, meaningless and do not bind anyone
                      in conscience regardless of that person's rank within the Church, whether Cleric
                      or layman.

7)  The Second RED HIGHLIGHT within the BLUE HIGHLIGHT – points immediately
      to the section of the docuмent which states that there is no need for any further
      declaration, not even by an ecclesiastical council, to be made on a man who is
      elected to the Papacy but who has deviated from the Faith. This answers the
      common objection which comes from heretically-minded French Clergy who fell
      for the heresy of Conciliarism which holds that Councils are of higher stature
      in the Church than the Pope himself. This heresy was condemned centuries ago
      but still persists amongst the French Clergy who are known for their obstinacy in
      their French heretical tendencies. This heretical belief has done great damage and
      disservice to the Traditional Catholic effort in the world by playing on the proper
      affection Catholics have toward the Pope to confuse them into accepting a false
      Pope.

8)  The GREEN HIGHLIGHT – Having clarified that no one who deviates from the Catholic
      Faith may validly hold ecclesiastical Office, not even the Roman Pontiff, he
      specificially addresses all of the various levels of ecclesiastical dignities within
      the Church who would otherwise be subordinate to the invalidly selected
      Hierarchs. By the Decree of this docuмent, Pope Paul IV absolves all of them,
                      including the laity, of any obedience or responsibility that the subordinates would                
                      otherwise have towards them had they validly taken Office. Pope Paul IV even
                      absolves the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church from obedience and
                      responsibility towards the newly elected false Pope even after swearing
                      obedience to him and venerating him as the Roman Pontiff.


 
 
The Full Text of Pope Paul IV's cuм Ex Apostolatus, February 15, 1559

By virtue of the Apostolic office which, despite our unworthiness, has been entrusted to Us by God, We are responsible for the general care of the flock of the Lord. Because of this, in order that the flock may be faithfully guarded and beneficially directed, We are bound to be diligently watchful after the manner of a vigilant Shepherd and to ensure most carefully that certain people who consider the study of the truth beneath them should be driven out of the sheepfold of Christ and no longer continue to disseminate error from positions of authority. We refer in particular to those who in this age, impelled by their sinfulness and supported by their cunning, are attacking with unusual learning and malice the discipline of the orthodox Faith, and who, moreover, by perverting the import of Holy Scripture, are striving to rend the unity of the Catholic Church and the seamless tunic of the Lord.

1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted, We have been concerned lest false prophets or others, even if they have only secular jurisdiction, should wretchedly ensnare the souls of the simple, and drag with them into perdition, destruction and damnation countless peoples committed to their care and rule, either in spiritual or in temporal matters; and We have been concerned also lest it may befall Us to see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, in the holy place. In view of this, Our desire has been to fulfil our Pastoral duty, insofar as, with the help of God, We are able, so as to arrest the foxes who are occupying themselves in the destruction of the vineyard of the Lord and to keep the wolves from the sheepfolds, lest We seem to be dumb watchdogs that cannot bark and lest We perish with the wicked husbandman and be compared with the hireling.

2 Hence, concerning these matters, We have held mature deliberation with our venerable brothers the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church; and, upon their advice and with their unanimous agreement, we now enact as follows:-
In respect of each and every sentence of excommunication, suspension, interdict and privation and any other sentences, censures and penalties against heretics or schismatics, enforced and promulgated in any way whatsoever by any of Our predecessors the Roman Pontiffs, or by any who were held to be such (even by their "litterae extravagantes" i.e. private letters), or by the sacred Councils received by the Church of God, or by decrees of the Holy Fathers and the statutes, or by the sacred Canons and the Constitutions and Apostolic Ordinations - all these measures, by Apostolic authority, We approve and renew, that they may and must be observed in perpetuity and, if perchance they be no longer in lively observance, that they be restored to it.

Thus We will and decree that the aforementioned sentences, censures and penalties be incurred without exception by all members of the following categories:
(i) Anysoever who, before this date, shall have been detected to have deviated from the Catholic Faith, or fallen into any heresy, or incurred schism, or provoked or committed either or both of these, or who have confessed to have done any of these things, or who have been convicted of having done any of these things.
(ii) Anysoever who (which may God, in His clemency and goodness to all, deign to avert) shall in the future so deviate or fall into heresy, or incur schism, or shall provoke or commit either or both of these.
(iii) Anysoever who shall be detected to have so deviated, fallen, incurred, provoked or committed, or who shall confess to have done any of these things, or who shall be convicted of having done any of these things.
These sanctions, moreover, shall be incurred by all members of these categories, of whatever status, grace, order, condition and pre-eminence they may be, even if they be endowed with the Episcopal, Archiepiscopal, Patriarchal, Primatial or some other greater Ecclesiastical dignity, or with the honour of the Cardinalate and of the Universal Apostolic See by the office of Legate, whether temporary or permanent, or if they be endowed with even worldly authority or excellence, as Count, Baron, Marquis, Duke, King or Emperor.

All this We will and decree.

3. Nonetheless, We also consider it proper that those who do not abandon evil deeds through love of virtue should be deterred therefrom by fear of punishment; and We are aware that Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Legates, Counts, Barons, Marquises, Dukes, Kings and Emperors (who ought to teach others and offer them a good example in order to preserve them in the Catholic Faith), by failing in their duty sin more gravely than others; since they not only damn themselves, but also drag with them into perdition and into the pit of death countless other people entrusted to their care or rule, or otherwise subject to them, by their like counsel and agreement.

Hence, by this Our Constitution which is to remain valid in perpetuity, in abomination of so great a crime (than which none in the Church of God can be greater or more pernicious) by the fulness of our Apostolic Power, We enact, determine, decree and define (since the aforesaid sentences, censures and penalties are to remain in efficacious force and strike all those whom they are intended to strike) that:
(i) each and every member of the following categories - Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals, Legates, Counts, Barons, Marquises, Dukes, Kings and Emperors - who:

(a) hitherto (as We have already said) have been detected, or have confessed to have, or have been convicted of having, deviated [i.e. from the Catholic Faith], or fallen into heresy or incurred schism or provoked or committed either or both of these;

(b) in the future also shall [so] deviate, or fall into heresy, or incur schism, or provoke or commit either or both of these, or shall be detected or shall confess to have, or shall be convicted of having [so] deviated, or fallen into heresy, or incurred schism, or provoked or committed either or both of these; (since in this they are rendered more inexcusable than the rest) in addition to the aforementioned sentences, censures and penalties, shall also automatically, without any exercise of law or application of fact, be thoroughly, entirely and perpetually deprived of:- their Orders and Cathedrals, even Metropolitan, Patriarchal and Primatial Churches, the honour of the Cardinalate and the office of any embassy whatsoever, not to mention both active and passive voting rights, all authority, Monasteries, benefices and Ecclesiastical offices, be they functional or sinecures, secular or religious of whatsoever Order, which they may have obtained by any concessions whatsoever, or by Apostolic Dispensations to title, charge and administration or otherwise howsoever, and in which or to which they may have any right whatsoever, likewise any whatsoever fruits, returns or annual revenues from like fruits, returns and revenues reserved for and assigned to them, as well as Countships, Baronies, Marquisates, Dukedoms, Kingships and Imperial Power;
(ii) that, moreover, they shall be unfit and incapable in respect of these things and that they shall be held to be backsliders and subverted in every way, just as if they had previously abjured heresy of this kind in public trial; that they shall never at any time be able to be restored, returned, reinstated or rehabilitated to their former status or Cathedral, Metropolitan, Patriarchal and Primatial Churches, or the Cardinalate, or other honour, any other dignity, greater or lesser, any right to vote, active or passive, or authority, or Monasteries and benefices, or Countships, Baronies, Marquisates, Dukedoms, Kingships and positions of Imperial power; but rather that they shall be abandoned to the judgement of the secular power to be punished after due consideration, unless there should appear in them signs of true penitence and the fruits of worthy repentance, and, by the kindness and clemency of the See itself, they shall have been sentenced to sequestration in any Monastery or other religious house in order to perform perpetual penance upon the bread of sorrow and the water of affliction;
(iii) that all such individuals also shall be held, treated and reputed as such by everyone, of whatsoever status, grade, order, condition or pre-eminence he may be and whatsoever excellence may be his, even Episcopal, Archiepiscopal, Patriarchal and Primatial or other greater Ecclesiastical dignity and even the honour of the Cardinalate, or secular, even the authority of Count, Baron, Marquis, Duke, King or Emperor, and as such must be avoided and must be deprived of the sympathy of all natural kindess.
4. By this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We further enact, determine, decree and define: that those who shall have claimed to have the right of patronage or of nominating suitable persons to Cathedral, Metropolitan, Patriarchal and Primatial Churches, or to Monasteries or other Ecclesiastical benefices which may be vacant by privation of this kind (in order that those which shall have been vacant for a long time may not be exposed to the unfit, but, having been rescued from enslavement to heretics, may be granted to suitable persons who would faithfully direct their people in the paths of justice), shall be bound to present other persons suitable to Churches, Monasteries and benefices of this kind, to Us, or to the Roman Pontiff at that time existing, within the time determined by law, or by their concordats, or by compacts entered into with the said See; and that, if they shall not have done so when the said period shall have elapsed, the full and free disposition of the aforesaid Churches, Monasteries and benefices shall by the fulness of the law itself devolve upon Us or upon the aforesaid Roman Pontiff.

5. By this Our Constitution, moreover, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We also enact, determine, decree and define: as follows concerning those who shall have presumed in any way knowingly to receive, defend, favour, believe or teach the teaching of those so apprehended, confessed or convicted: (i) they shall automatically incur sentence of excommunication;

(ii) they shall be rendered infamous;

(iii) they shall be excluded on pain of invalidity from any public or private office, deliberation, Synod, general or provincial Council and any conclave of Cardinals or other congregation of the faithful, and from any election or function of witness, so that they cannot take part in any of these by vote, in person, by writings, representative or by any agent;

(iv) they shall be incapable of making a will;

(v) they shall not accede to the succession of heredity;

(vi) no one shall be forced to respond to them concerning any business;

(vii) if perchance they shall have been Judges, their judgements shall have no force, nor shall any cases be brought to their hearing.;

(viii) if they shall have been Advocates, their pleading shall nowise be received;

(ix) if they shall have been Notaries, docuмents drafted by them shall be entirely without strength or weight;

(x) clerics shall be automatically deprived of each and every Church, even Cathedral, Metropolitan, Patriarchal, Primatial, and likewise of dignities, Monasteries, benefices and Ecclesiastical offices, and even, as has been already mentioned, of qualifications, howsoever obtained by them;

(xi) laymen, moreover, in the same way - even if they be qualified, as already described, or endowed with the aforesaid dignities or anysoever Kingdoms, Duchies, Dominions, Fiefs and temporal goods possessed by them;

(xii) finally, all Kingdoms, Duchies, Dominions, Fiefs and goods of this kind shall be confiscated, made public and shall remain so, and shall be made the rightful property of those who shall first occupy them if these shall be sincere in faith, in the unity of the Holy Roman Church and under obedience to Us and to Our successors the Roman Pontiffs canonically entering office.
, no6. In addition, by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define: that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:

(i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;

(ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by allr through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;

(iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;

(iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain;

(v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;

(vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.

7. Finally, by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We also enact, determine, define and decree: that any and all persons who would have been subject to those thus promoted or elevated if they had not previously deviated from the Faith, become heretics, incurred schism or provoked or committed any or all of these, be they members of anysoever of the following categories: (i) the clergy, secular and religious;

(ii) the laity;

(iii) the Cardinals, even those who shall have taken part in the election of this very Pontiff previously deviating from the Faith or heretical or schismatical, or shall otherwise have consented and vouchsafed obedience to him and shall have venerated him;

(iv) Castellans, Prefects, Captains and Officials, even of Our Beloved City and of the entire Ecclesiastical State, even if they shall be obliged and beholden to those thus promoted or elevated by homage, oath or security; shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering). To the greater confusion, moreover, of those thus promoted or elevated, if these shall have wished to prolong their government and authority, they shall be permitted to request the assistance of the secular arm against these same individuals thus promoted or elevated; nor shall those who withdraw on this account, in the aforementioned circuмstances, from fidelity and obedience to those thus promoted and elevated, be subject, as are those who tear the tunic of the Lord, to the retribution of any censures or penalties.
8. The provisions of this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity are to take effect notwithstanding any Constitutions, Apostolic Ordinations, privileges, indults or Apostolic Letters, whether they be to these same Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates and Cardinals or to any others, and whatsoever may be their import and form, and with whatsoever sub-clauses or decrees they may have been granted, even "motu proprio" and by certain knowledge, from the fulness of the Apostolic power or even consistorially or otherwise howsoever; and even if they have been repeatedly approved and renewed,have been included in the corpus of the Law or strengthened by any capital conclaves whatsoever (even by oath) or by Apostolic confirmation or by anysoever other endorsements or if they were legislated by ourself. By this present docuмent instead of by express mention, We specially and expressly derogate the provisions of all these by appropriate deletion and word-for-word substitution, so that these may otherwise remain in force.

9. In order, however, that this docuмent may be brought to the notice of all whom it concerns, We wish it or a transcription of it (to which, when made by the hand of the undersigned Public Notary and fortified by the seal of any person established in ecclesiastical dignity, We decree that complete trust must be accorded) to be published and affixed in the Basilica of the Prince of the Apostles in this City and on the doors of the Apostolic Chancery and in the pavilion of the Campus Florae by some of our couriers; [we] will [further] that a quantity of copies affixed in this place should be distributed, and that publication and affixing of this kind should suffice and be held as right, solemn and legitimate, and that no other publication should be required or awaited.

10. No one at all, therefore, may infringe this docuмent of our approbation, re-introduction, sanction, statute and derogation of wills and decrees, or by rash presumption contradict it. If anyone, however, should presume to attempt this, let him know that he is destined to incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul. Given in Rome at Saint Peter's in the year of the Incarnation of the Lord 1559, 15th February, in the fourth year of our Pontificate.

All I can say is that as an SSPX member, I dis-agree with almost everything Paul VI taught.

SpiritusSanctus said:

All I can say is that as an SSPX member, I dis-agree with almost everything Paul VI taught.

I can't tell if this is dry humor or if he just didn't read the post carefully.  

cuм Ex Apostolatus fits Ratzinger -- it doesn't necessarily fit John XXIII or Paul VI.  It's not a cure-all for our team.  Where it comes in handy is against those who misunderstand the idea of "perpetual succession" from Vatican I.  Like Caminus today when he said --

"That's a nice fantasy and all, but you'll have to wake up some day and realize that you can't contrive authority, it must come from a continuous succession."  

If he is talking about Popes -- and he must be because the succession of priests and bishops still exists -- then cuм Ex blasts his specious argument out of the water.  If a "continuous succession" meaning no significant gaps between papacies were some kind of necessary mark of the Church, then Paul IV and SAINT Pius V -- who threw his weight behind cuм Ex -- were heretics, because the bull is ex cathedra and clearly lays out the possibility of a heretic usurping the See of Peter.  If that happened in the 16th century, it would have been the same as now -- the chair would have been empty.

If he is talking about Popes -- and he must be because the succession of priests and bishops still exists -- then cuм Ex blasts his specious argument out of the water.  If a "continuous succession" meaning no significant gaps between papacies were some kind of necessary mark of the Church, then Paul IV and SAINT Pius V -- who threw his weight behind cuм Ex -- were heretics, because the bull is ex cathedra and clearly lays out the possibility of a heretic usurping the See of Peter.  If that happened in the 16th century, it would have been the same as now -- the chair would have been empty.

Who wouldn't concede the possibility?  It is common teaching of theologians.  The problem that you have on your hands is not that there has been an isolated incident where a single heretical pope was elected, but rather that we haven't had a pope for 50 years.  But the pope is the source of ordinary jurisdiction, i.e. authority.  Eventually, those who possessed ordinary jurisdiction either die off or have also abdicated their offices.  No traditional bishop has ordinary jurisdiction.  Now we have a situation where no real authority exists.  This scenario touches upon the very constitution of the Church.  So where does it come from?  You can't just make it up on a whim, it's impossible.  Otherwise, anyone could break away from the Church and declare themselves to have authority.  

Cecelia's problem is that she confuses the principle with the fact again.  No one denies the principle as outlined in the docuмent above.  The question is whether the principles apply in a given case and that means one has to determine the fact that the pope is obstinately heretical in the first place.  She basically just begs the question by assuming to be true that which needs to be proven.      

Even if that were the case, short of a visible defection, e.g. joining a false sect, or otherwise leaving the Church, the presumption remains that he is still a member, with all the legal claims he is entitled to, until authority decides otherwise.  That's what the theologians meant when they envisages a pope "falling into heresy," that is by an external act of defection or obstinate denial of defined dogma.  I have yet to see evidence where any of the conciliar popes have personally and obstinately denied a defined dogma of the faith.  Maybe you could start a new thread to provide this evidence, for that is the material fact that needs to be established.  Without that firmly evinced, you are just relying on assumption.  

The corollary is that even if we find heresy in the writings of a pope or bishop, we cannot automatically infer that they immediately cease to be members of the Church and fall from office.

The threshold is much higher than reckless people like Mike make it appear to be.  It is a very grave situation that demands the utmost prudence and seriousness.  There is no room for a mistake if you wish to venture into questions well outside of your duties.        

Quote

SpiritusSanctus
All I can say is that as an SSPX member, I dis-agree with almost everything Paul VI taught.  
 

Do you mean Paul VI [1958]or Pope Paul IV [1559]?  There is a huge difference!!!  You may then understand the relevance of my post.

There is a huge difference, but  as a relevant aside: SpiritusSanctus do you disagree with almost everything Paul VI taught in his capacity of  the Roman Pontiff?

Caminus said:

Even if that were the case, short of a visible defection, e.g. joining a false sect, or otherwise leaving the Church, the presumption remains that he is still a member, with all the legal claims he is entitled to, until authority decides otherwise.  

Quatsch.  Man, your patter is so stale.  You are exactly the same as this French sophist EA.  You say the exact same things.  What you are doing, God help you if it's deliberate, is scaring people into waiting for "proper authority" in Rome to make a formal declaration about the status of the "Popes" when there no longer is any proper authority in Rome.  This is why -- again, it if it is deliberate -- you really are evil.

Do I even have to bother with this?  Where does it speak in cuм Ex Apostolatus about a proper authority being necessary to void the election of a heretical Pope?  Ratzinger's heresies in his books as a Cardinal are numerous; I'm not going to list them here.  Go to the Dimonds' website -- oh that's right, they don't convince you.  Well, you can lead a horse to water...

1917 Code of Canon Law:

Canon 188:  "There are certain causes which effect the tacit resignation of an office, which resignation is accepted in advance by operation of law, and hence is effective without any declaration.  These causes are:
...

(4) if he has publicly fallen away from the Catholic faith."

Bla bla bla... Shooting fish in a barrel...

Then you go into the usual routine about how an empty See of Peter is possible, but not for this long... What kind of backwards reasoning is this?  First of all, there is no proof anywhere that the chair is somehow exempt from being vacant this long.  Secondly, just because YOUR favored organization, the SSPX, instead of embracing sedevacantism long ago, helped keep this gang of crooks in power for decades, that is supposed to sway my decision?  You create the mess; and then you tell me that my theory of sedevacantism is wrong because we are trying to clean up YOUR mess?  Just because an error is old doesn't make it any more venerable.  

You are a sophist, a wretched one.  The other day you acted as if you did believe in a conspiracy.  Now you are acting as if there isn't one, because you are once again making this all about "bad Popes" when it is really about a total takeover.

Raoul well said above :applause:

Caminus said:Even if that were the case, short of a visible defection, e.g. joining a false sect, or otherwise leaving the Church, the presumption remains that he is still a member, with all the legal claims he is entitled to, until authority decides otherwise.  That's what the theologians meant when they envisages a pope "falling into heresy," that is by an external act of defection or obstinate denial of defined dogma.  I have yet to see evidence where any of the conciliar popes have personally and obstinately denied a defined dogma of the faith.  Maybe you could start a new thread to provide this evidence, for that is the material fact that needs to be established.  Without that firmly evinced, you are just relying on assumption.  

I would like to point out to Caminus, that all the hierarchy of the conciliar church have joined a Protestant [false]sect and have apostasized.  The conciliar Church is not the catholic church. Surely you have made that assumption by now? This is simple, even for a 10 year old.   The Catholic church must possess the FOUR MARKS.

If, God forbid, I were in a situation where I must profess my faith or take the blade, then obviously I am not going to take out my books and painstakingly point out the heresies of Vatican II for example.  No, I am going to know in my heart with faith, that that church is not the catholic church, and with the grace of God take the blade.  That is why there are simple truths, like the Four Marks.  That is why the simplest of peasants and little children can be martyrs.

If you think they [the Conciliar church hierarchy] are still members of the catholic church hierarchy, then you must follow them, as SSPX, to my knowledge, have not been given the primacy of Peter in the interim.  They are not the guarantors and custodians of the norm of faith.
Basically and generally,the bishops and cardinals went in to Vatican II, catholics [with many heretical ideas]and came out Protestants.

COMMENTARY ON cuм EX APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO OF POPE PAUL IV 1559


Pope Paul IV promulgated this Bull to automatically deprive or ban from office those who had defected from the Faith, whether secretly or openly.  In particular he wished to ban from the papacy in the next conclave, Giovanni Cardinal Marone, (1509-1580), whom he suspected of being a Protestant heretic, and whom he even imprisoned in the Castel Sant Angelo.
It was for planning to sell out to the LUTHERANS on the Doctrine of Justification, that Pope Paul IV banned Marone from  Papal office as a heretic, and threw him in jail.  This is, of course, EXACTLY what Ratzinger and John Paul II did in 1999.  Sold out the catholic teaching on Justification, to the Lutherans!