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Author Topic: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?  (Read 2056 times)

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Offline Mr G

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Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
« on: July 07, 2017, 07:35:57 PM »
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  • https://gloria.tv/article/dTMEjguuZk8v4fvvnhuJfiSwd

    Can anyone verify this? (I would not be surprised if it is true).

    The modernist lay liturgist Andrea Grillo who is close to Pope Francis, told La Croix that Francis is considering abolishing Benedict XVI's Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificuм that allows all priests to celebrate the Roman Rite. According to Grillo, once the Vatican erects the Society of Saint Pius X as a Personal Prelature, the Roman Rite will be preserved only within this structure. "But [Francis] will not do this as long as Benedict XVI is alive".

    Grillo also knows, that Francis plans to start a cycle on the liturgy during his Wednesday Audiences, in order to promote his liturgical views.


    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #1 on: July 07, 2017, 09:24:31 PM »
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  • "But [Francis] will not do this as long as Benedict XVI is alive".
    Does this mean they are going to pop off B. XVI like John Paul I? Francis I did say that he probably wouldn't even be pope for a full 7 years... he would have to act fast if that is really the case.
    Just speculating.
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll


    Offline poche

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #2 on: July 08, 2017, 04:06:16 AM »
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  • https://gloria.tv/article/dTMEjguuZk8v4fvvnhuJfiSwd

    Can anyone verify this? (I would not be surprised if it is true).

    The modernist lay liturgist Andrea Grillo who is close to Pope Francis, told La Croix that Francis is considering abolishing Benedict XVI's Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificuм that allows all priests to celebrate the Roman Rite. According to Grillo, once the Vatican erects the Society of Saint Pius X as a Personal Prelature, the Roman Rite will be preserved only within this structure. "But [Francis] will not do this as long as Benedict XVI is alive".

    Grillo also knows, that Francis plans to start a cycle on the liturgy during his Wednesday Audiences, in order to promote his liturgical views.
    There are two problems with this. First of all the Society of St. Pius X is not the only community in that celebrates teh TLM exclusively.
    Second how does anybody know that Pope Francis will outlive Emeritus Pope Benedict?   

    Offline Geremia

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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #4 on: July 08, 2017, 03:50:08 PM »
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  • "But [Francis] will not do this as long as Benedict XVI is alive".
    Deo gratias God is alive. Nothing can escape Him.
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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #5 on: July 08, 2017, 06:35:00 PM »
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  • https://gloria.tv/article/dTMEjguuZk8v4fvvnhuJfiSwd

    Can anyone verify this? (I would not be surprised if it is true).

    The modernist lay liturgist Andrea Grillo who is close to Pope Francis, told La Croix that Francis is considering abolishing Benedict XVI's Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificuм that allows all priests to celebrate the Roman Rite. According to Grillo, once the Vatican erects the Society of Saint Pius X as a Personal Prelature, the Roman Rite will be preserved only within this structure. "But [Francis] will not do this as long as Benedict XVI is alive".

    Grillo also knows, that Francis plans to start a cycle on the liturgy during his Wednesday Audiences, in order to promote his liturgical views.

    If the pope is "the master of the Liturgy" and the Liturgy is only a matter of "discipline" (not dogma), as the SSPX believes, why not? Summorum Pontificuм was written with the SSPX in mind, to bring them into the "reform of the reform". +Fellay has already accepted the "hermeneutics of continuity" of Benedict. Also, +Fellay stated last October (part 6 of his 6 part talk) that he had asked the pope (or E.D.) "What about the Fraternity of St. Peter" and the response was: "They will be under you!"
     
    As far as Benedict, he's given too much credit as a "conservative". He made it clear in his book, Spirit of the Liturgy, that two rites are too difficult to manage and "eventually, they should be merged into one". THAT was the purpose of Summorum Pontificuм. It is also clear from the Letter sent also on 7/7/07 with Summorum Pontificuм to all the bishops of the world  http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html   and in the "explanation" of Summorum Pontificuм, of 30 April, 2011: "Universae ecclesiae". Summorum Pontificuм has always been the means to bring the 1962 Missal back to the Novus Ordo.
     
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/docuмents/rc_com_ecclsdei_doc_20110430_istr-universae-ecclesiae_en.html
     
    It is also public record that BXVI and Francis are in agreement. Msgr. Ganswein has stated the  only difference is in "style". No reason why Summorum Pontificuм (human law) could not be changed.
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #6 on: July 09, 2017, 02:44:05 PM »
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  • the Liturgy is only a matter of "discipline" (not dogma), as the SSPX believes
    They do?
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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #7 on: July 09, 2017, 03:44:29 PM »
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  • YES, the SSPX believes the pope is the "Master of the Liturgy". This unfortunately includes +Williamson. Therefore the pope can make any changes to it as long as the changes are not harmful to the faith.

    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline songbird

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #8 on: July 09, 2017, 05:53:03 PM »
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  • St. Pope Pius V, would turn in his grave!  

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #9 on: July 21, 2017, 12:49:17 PM »
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  • Conservative Catholics have learned nothing over the last ten years.  Again and again true traditional Catholics have been trying to explain to Conservatives that Summorum Pontificuм is essentially about the Reform of the Reform.  They have been content will the crumbs of the 1962 Indult for which they have accepted in return for their silence on doctrinal matters.  Sooner or later this cowardly compromise will be paid when what little they were given is taken away.



    The article below was just posted on Rorate Caeli:
    https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/07/a-reply-to-cardinal-sarah-on-liturgical.html


    A reply to Cardinal Sarah on 'liturgical reconciliation'

    It seems that the most trad-friendly Prelates of the Church actually want the Traditional Mass to disappear. Thus, Cardinal Burke said in 2011:

    Quote
    It seems to me that is what he [Pope Benedict] has in mind is that this mutual enrichment would seem to naturally produce a new form of the Roman rite – the 'reform of the reform,' if we may – all of which I would welcome and look forward to its advent.

    Cardinal Sarah has now said the same thing.

    Quote
    It is a priority that, with the help of the Holy Spirit, we can examine through prayer and study, how to return to a common reformed rite always with this goal of a reconciliation inside the Church.

    Cardinal Sarah's concrete suggestions point to an intermediate state, in which the two 'Forms' have converged somewhat. I have addressed these suggestions in a post on the Catholic Herald blog here. Notably, the Novus Ordo Lectionary cannot be simply be inserted into the Vetus Ordo Missal, because it reflects a liturgical vision which is completely different from that of the ancient Mass: which is why all the other changes were made at the same time. A compromise between these two two understandings of what the liturgy is for and how it should work will not produce a perfect synthesis, but a muddle.
    I've made the argument about the Lectionary at length, on this blog, here, and about the 'Reform of the Reform' falling between two stools here.

    Leaving open the question of how Cardinal Burke's thinking may have developed since 2011, why would he or Cardinals Sarah want to get rid of the ancient Mass?

    One justification appears to be the idea that the existence of two Forms of the Roman Rite is, regardless of the merits or demerits of the forms themselves, itself a problem. I suppose this idea is related to a certain conservative yen for centralisation and uniformity, but I doubt either Cardinal would want to apply it to the Eastern Rites, even in the West, and I suspect they would not really want to stop the Dominicans, Norbertines, or Carthusians - or the former Anglicans - from celebrating their own rites and usages. So although talk of 'disunity' has a superficial force I don't think this is really driving their thinking here. They don't really want to contradict Vatican II's praise of liturgical diversity. (I have written about liturgical pluralism here.)

    I think the more powerful consideration is that they are unhappy with the Ordinary Form. Cardinal Sarah, in particular, has taken up points hammered by Cardinal Ratzinger in The Spirit of the Liturgy, notably about how celebration 'facing the people' was a mistake, and how the reformed Mass should have more silence in it. This is the argument of the 'Reform of the Reform', and it is an argument which has no direct connection with the Extraordinary Form. But Sarah and others seem to think that the existence of the Extraordinary Form creates an extra reason to undertake the Reform of the Reform. 'Look!' he seems to be saying: 'Here are a whole lot of Catholics who refuse to go to the Novus Ordo because it lacks silence, and the priest usually faces the people. Let's make those changes and draw these people back in.'

    In other words, his sympathy for some of the arguments about the merits of the Traditional Mass made by its adherents has given Cardinal Sarah the idea of making a purely tactical use of the movement to leverage his position on the future development of the Ordinary Form.

    Perhaps things would be different if the EF looked about to take over the whole Church, but if that is going to happen, it would seem it would take at least a century.

    I can't say I'm too worried by these proposals. They revive discussions on liturgical matters, which is positive, but opposition by progressive and - let's be honest - middle-of-the-road Novus Ordo priests and faithful to the Reform of the Reform makes the implementation of Cardinal Sarah's programme by fiat from Rome unimaginable, even if he were to become Pope tomorrow.

    It should, all the same, stimulate supporters of the Church's ancient liturgical traditions to explain ever more forcefully the point of the ancient Lectionary, and any other threatened features of the Mass they love.


    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
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    Offline graceseeker

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 02:34:25 PM »
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  • https://gloria.tv/article/dTMEjguuZk8v4fvvnhuJfiSwd

    Can anyone verify this? (I would not be surprised if it is true).

    The modernist lay liturgist Andrea Grillo who is close to Pope Francis, told La Croix that Francis is considering abolishing Benedict XVI's Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificuм that allows all priests to celebrate the Roman Rite. According to Grillo, once the Vatican erects the Society of Saint Pius X as a Personal Prelature, the Roman Rite will be preserved only within this structure. "But [Francis] will not do this as long as Benedict XVI is alive".

    Grillo also knows, that Francis plans to start a cycle on the liturgy during his Wednesday Audiences, in order to promote his liturgical views.
    maybe you could explain in plain English so everyone can understand?
    I dont have time to study (become erudite vis a vis) ancient Church history and etc... etc... before I go on the forums.. 


    Offline poche

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #11 on: July 21, 2017, 11:20:21 PM »
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  • YES, the SSPX believes the pope is the "Master of the Liturgy". This unfortunately includes +Williamson. Therefore the pope can make any changes to it as long as the changes are not harmful to the faith.
    If the SSPX believes that the Pope is the master of the liturgy then why haven't they reconciled with the Holy See? 

    Offline AJNC

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #12 on: July 22, 2017, 05:49:48 AM »
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  • If the SSPX believes that the Pope is the master of the liturgy then why haven't they reconciled with the Holy See?
    Because it also believes that he is mastering the liturgy in the wrong way. Abp. Lefebvre called the N.O.M. the "Mass of Luther". Didn't you know?

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #13 on: July 22, 2017, 01:14:55 PM »
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  • https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/15/opinion/sunday/pope-francis-next-act.html

    Even the NY Times?


    Quote
    And so too in liturgical issues, where there is talk that Francis’s outreach to the Society of Saint Pius X, the semi-schismatic group that celebrates the Latin Mass, could lead first to the S.S.P.X.’s reintegration and then the suppression of the pre-Vatican II liturgy for everyone else — effectively using the S.S.P.X. to quarantine traditionalism.

    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline poche

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    Re: Does Francis Plan to Abolish Summorum Pontificuм?
    « Reply #14 on: July 22, 2017, 11:20:08 PM »
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  • https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/15/opinion/sunday/pope-francis-next-act.html

    Even the NY Times?
    I don't think it will be a suppression of the Liturgy, rather it will be an expansion of the TLM.