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Author Topic: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?  (Read 5084 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2023, 02:51:17 PM »
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  • So the first comment that you called out had Giuffre saying after Siri's comments that "whatever pressure got him off the throne was serious enough to keep him off the throne".  This was a reference to the fact that he never came forward with the information to lay claim to the papal election over all those years.  There's nothing illogical about that interpretation of what he said.  Basically, the fact that he was in anguish until his very last years about the terrible things that took place mean they were weighing on him all those years.
    .

    The expression "in other words" means one is about to make a statement that is substantially the same as the previous statement but stated in different words.

    Gary Giuffre is claiming that Siri admitted having been elected when he did not admit this. That's why Gary Giuffre is claiming that these two statements are substantially the same but stated with different words:

    1) "I cannot answer your question about whether I was elected pope because it is secret, but I could tell you terrible things about the conclave," and

    2) "I had to step down because I was threatened, and I can't discuss this with you today because that threat is still hanging over me."

    These statements are not even remotely the same, and yet Gary is claiming they are by his use of the expression "in other words" to introduce the second one after quoting the first one. He does this in order to twist Siri's words (#1) into Gary's words (#2). That's what I called out.

    Offline dxcat40

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #16 on: September 23, 2023, 03:07:38 PM »
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  • .

    This is a fallacy that is becoming increasingly popular. The problem with this sort of argument is that it appeals to liars to establish the truth. If the SPLC are not credible, then what they say cannot be used to establish the truth of any fact.

    Moreover, it implies that the SPLC would denounce something only if it were true. This is also false. The SPLC, like anyone else, would attack an idea they consider false if people believe it and it goes against their goals or intentions. Whether it is objectively true is of less importance than whether people believe it to be true.

    For example, I could attack the idea that there are aliens in outer space. Do I think there are? No, I don't. But I don't want other people to believe in them either because it goes contrary to the Faith. So if an atheist said, "Well, there must be aliens out there because Yeti is a religious nut and he says there aren't," I would say, "I am more concerned about the fact that I don't want people to believe in aliens, since such an idea is against the Faith, than whether there actually are any."

    Lastly, this assumes the SPLC would know one way or the other whether the Siri theory is true, which is another problematic assertion

    Kudos, Yeti. And contra Ladislaus, it is becoming increasingly popular. As the degeneration of society continues and increases at a greater pace, it is certain to become worse than we might imagine possible. The alt-media and their followers on CathInfo have regularly used this type of argument to support their pet causes. It's not limited to this topic, but it shows that even those that claim to be trained in logic fail abysmally at it and fall for the most simple of tricks in a childish manner.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #17 on: September 23, 2023, 03:14:50 PM »
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  • Kudos, Yeti. And contra Ladislaus, it is becoming increasingly popular. As the degeneration of society continues and increases at a greater pace, it is certain to become worse than we might imagine possible. The alt-media and their followers on CathInfo have regularly used this type of argument to support their pet causes. It's not limited to this topic, but it shows that even those that claim to be trained in logic fail abysmally at it and fall for the most simple of tricks in a childish manner.
    .

    This is not the place for that, dx. We're trying to discuss the Siri theory here. Can you please take this somewhere else.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #18 on: September 23, 2023, 03:31:15 PM »
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  • The issue is , why is the SPLC interested in denouncing OR approving any supposed conspiracy in the Church at all? Seems they might have a dog in this fight. Do we as Catholics ruminate over jew cօռspιʀαcιҽs like  "messiah" Sabbitai Zevi? Most of us don't know or really care.
     

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #19 on: September 23, 2023, 03:35:07 PM »
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  • The issue is , why is the SPLC interested in denouncing OR approving any supposed conspiracy in the Church at all? Seems they might have a dog in this fight. Do we as Catholics ruminate over Jєω cօռspιʀαcιҽs like  "messiah" Sabbitai Zevi? Most of us don't know or really care.
     
    .

    The actions of evil people who are promoting a false agenda cannot be used to establish the truth of anything because falsehood is not a yardstick of truth, but rather it is the other way around. Also, we can't read their minds so we don't know why they do anything in particular. Furthermore, you are assuming they will only attack an idea that is true, whereas obviously they would also attack a false idea that still goes against thier agenda. Lastly, they might incorrectly believe the Siri thesis to be true.

    An argument based on the actions of evil people really doesn't get you anywhere.


    Offline dxcat40

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #20 on: September 23, 2023, 05:01:32 PM »
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  • .

    This is not the place for that, dx. We're trying to discuss the Siri theory here. Can you please take this somewhere else.

    Ok, disagree with me on some points, but conspiracy theory is at the heart of the issue. Siri Theory is a juicy conspiracy theory that has multiple myths and legends attached to it.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #21 on: September 23, 2023, 05:08:08 PM »
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  • .

    The actions of evil people who are promoting a false agenda cannot be used to establish the truth of anything because falsehood is not a yardstick of truth, but rather it is the other way around. Also, we can't read their minds so we don't know why they do anything in particular. Furthermore, you are assuming they will only attack an idea that is true, whereas obviously they would also attack a false idea that still goes against thier agenda. Lastly, they might incorrectly believe the Siri thesis to be true.

    An argument based on the actions of evil people really doesn't get you anywhere.
    I think they will attack an idea that threatens them

    Offline dxcat40

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #22 on: September 23, 2023, 05:13:34 PM »
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  • The issue is , why is the SPLC interested in denouncing OR approving any supposed conspiracy in the Church at all? Seems they might have a dog in this fight. Do we as Catholics ruminate over jew cօռspιʀαcιҽs like  "messiah" Sabbitai Zevi? Most of us don't know or really care.

    Conspiracy theories are useful ways of discrediting the opposition. We all know this, and they have plenty of examples of crazy cօռspιʀαcιҽs to use in order to show Traditional Catholics as nutty conspiracy theorists. It does make sense for them to both help spread and bring these cօռspιʀαcιҽs to light, in order to ensure the opposition is disoriented and unable to understand how to fight back.

    Flat Earthers like Ladislaus might use the argument that the relentless attacks on Flat Earth also points towards it being true. The reality is that the average person believes the Flat Earth is a raving lunatic. Consider the application of "Dynamic Silence" and how the media will silence certain topics and individuals that are not conducive to their narratives. Flat Earth is something extremely damaging to the Traditionalist cause and serves the mainstream media's interests perfectly, which is why they might discuss a science denying extremist in favorable contexts.


    Offline dxcat40

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #23 on: September 23, 2023, 05:14:28 PM »
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  • I think they will attack an idea that threatens them

    My argument above in a nutshell is that no, it is not necessary for them to only attack threats, but very useful to promote and attack non-threats in order to further discredit their opposition.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #24 on: September 23, 2023, 05:25:16 PM »
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  • .

    I think this guy has a screw loose at best or is intellectually dishonest at worst. In this interview, Giuffre is giving his assertion that Cardinal Siri was threatened with something to make him step down. He then relates the famous interview in which either he or maybe it was Remy asked Siri about the conclave, and Cardinal Siri said basically, "I am bound by the secret, but I could tell you terrible things about the conclave." Then Giuffre continues, "In other words, whatever he was threatened with was so bad that it was still preventing him from speaking all those years later."

    No, that is not "in other words" of what Cardinal Siri said. It is a completely different statement.

    I'll probably buy his book if he ever releases it, just out of curiosity, but the guy is just a crank.

    Isn't this Guiffre guy the thorn in Dr. Chojnowski's side, who claims there are more than one fake Sr. Lucia's, at least three? Excuse the poor spelling of Dr. C's name, which is more profoundly perplexing to say and spell than even the Apocalypse. LOL!!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #25 on: September 23, 2023, 05:49:12 PM »
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  • alt-media and their followers on CathInfo

    You despise "alt-media" due to your puerile jingoism and brainwashing.  You'll never get the truth from mainstream media, except of course you believe that Soros, Gates, and all the rogues supporting Ukraine are suddenly telling the truth.  You're really an intellectual basket-case.  With a few exceptions, most people here are sophisticated enough to sift out the fake alt-media, usually controlled opposition planted into alt-media by the powers that control the main media, aka the Jews, from what's real.  You've never demonstrated or proven a single point that you've made, but you throw terms of derision like "alt media" out there as if by repeating it as a derisive term people will believe your nonsense.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #26 on: September 23, 2023, 05:56:04 PM »
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  • dxcat40 gets his "news" from here ...






    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #27 on: September 23, 2023, 06:02:08 PM »
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  • Isn't this Guiffre guy the thorn in Dr. Chojnowski's side, who claims there are more than one fake Sr. Lucia's, at least three? Excuse the poor spelling of Dr. C's name, which is more profoundly perplexing to say and spell than even the Apocalypse. LOL!!
    The thorn in Dr Chojnowski's side is actually the Novus Ordo  and conservative Trad Inc. hiding the truth about Sister Lucy ll. Giuffre may have said there were three SL's , but he never stated it as a fact- just an observation. He's allowed.  Regarding the Siri theory, it is the only situation where the pieces all fit. Fatima, the Third Secret, Vatican ll, "Malachi Martin", the false Vll papacies, the jews and the eclipse of the Church.

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #28 on: September 23, 2023, 06:58:49 PM »
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  • You apparently don't understand how "probabilities" are calculated. You must multiply, not add the probabilities of each independent event. Here is a web page that explains this: https://www.thoughtco.com/multiplication-rule-for-independent-events-3126602

    So, in your example above, the math would be as follows:

    .5 * .5 * .5 * .5 = .0625 = a whopping 6.25% chance of occurrence.

    And if you keep adding independent events (with less than 100% certainty), then the total probability will go even lower, not higher.

    I won't attempt to comment on the topic of this thread, but I will comment as to this assertion about statistics. When several probabilities are multiplied together, the result (e.g., 6.25% in the example above) is the probability that each and every one of the cited events will ALL occur.

    But that's not at all what was said in Reply #10:

    Quote
    There are varying degrees of probability for any given point, but then when you start combining multiple points of certain probabilities, together they form a picture that makes the denying the conclusion less and less statistically probable.

    Thus, the probability that SHOULD be calculated, relevant to the above statement, is whether NONE of the events occurred. Using the same example of .5 * .5 * .5 * .5, that's what just so happens to work out to 6.25%, i.e., the probability that none of this happened at all is very slim (that is, if we do assume to begin with that the probability of each discrete event is indeed 50/50, apparently arguable from this long conversation here already).

    I don't have a "dog in this fight" over Siri or what really happened in 1958 (yes, something off, exactly what, I don't know). But stats? That I do know.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Does B’nai B’rith have the right to veto a Papal election?
    « Reply #29 on: September 23, 2023, 07:45:16 PM »
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  • I won't attempt to comment on the topic of this thread, but I will comment as to this assertion about statistics. When several probabilities are multiplied together, the result (e.g., 6.25% in the example above) is the probability that each and every one of the cited events will ALL occur.

    But that's not at all what was said in Reply #10:

    Thus, the probability that SHOULD be calculated, relevant to the above statement, is whether NONE of the events occurred. Using the same example of .5 * .5 * .5 * .5, that's what just so happens to work out to 6.25%, i.e., the probability that none of this happened at all is very slim (that is, if we do assume to begin with that the probability of each discrete event is indeed 50/50, apparently arguable from this long conversation here already).

    I don't have a "dog in this fight" over Siri or what really happened in 1958 (yes, something off, exactly what, I don't know). But stats? That I do know.

    Thank you for the correction. I'm glad we have someone with more expertise in statistics. Here is what the original poster claimed:


    Quote
    I have one point that has a 50% chance of leading to the conclusion of fact, then another that's 50%, and then 5 or 10 that are 50%, suddenly that can lead to a 90%+ chance of the conclusion being true, given the combined odds.  That's how circuмstantial evidence works.

    Do you, as a trained statistician believe that is the proper understanding of how one would calculate the probability of independent events?