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Offline soulguard

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Does anyone want to start a SV religious order
« on: October 21, 2013, 11:00:46 AM »
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  • Not that I have immediate plans to form a religious congregation, but in these times of emergency, I find there is a need for people who hold the SV position to have somewhere to go if they want to live in religion. If there were enough people an order could be started or if there was enough monks perhaps we could found a monastery - for genuine religious life and prayer, not like the dimonds one that is for trying to convert the world. They are more Dominican than Benedictine. I don't see why they call themselves Benedictine, they have not got the practice of the Benedictine order, they are more like Dominicans whose mission is to combat heresy. Starting an order is something I wonder about. People who hold the Sedevacantist position just have to have somewhere to go.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Does anyone want to start a SV religious order
    « Reply #1 on: October 21, 2013, 11:56:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: soulguard
    Not that I have immediate plans to form a religious congregation, but in these times of emergency, I find there is a need for people who hold the SV position to have somewhere to go if they want to live in religion. If there were enough people an order could be started or if there was enough monks perhaps we could found a monastery - for genuine religious life and prayer, not like the dimonds one that is for trying to convert the world. They are more Dominican than Benedictine. I don't see why they call themselves Benedictine, they have not got the practice of the Benedictine order, they are more like Dominicans whose mission is to combat heresy. Starting an order is something I wonder about. People who hold the Sedevacantist position just have to have somewhere to go.


    Sounds good to me.  I wish the SV Bishops and Priests would unite.  The Devil is winning so far.  We should unite and offer Masses, prayers and every thought word and action of each day for the salvation of souls.  In my view there really would be nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree on the:

    1.  Una Cum

    2.  Pre and post 1955 liturgy (and disciplines)

    3.  Or even those who accept the new guys are Material "Popes" but are SV in thought word and action even when offering the Mass as they do not offer it in union with the head heretic of the anti-Catholic Church.

    4.  NFP

    5.  Those who accept harvesting organs from brain "dead" people would have to be mum on that topic though.

    I would also think that they would tackle the above topics one by one and come to a definitive conclusion on them even if that definitive conclusion is that there is no definitive conclusion that they can agree on and we just have to wait for a valid Pope to set us straight.  But they would have to present their thesis and parse it and present the objections and responses to those objections and sort the above out as far as possible and share their findings with the laity.  

    No public Feeneyites allowed either.  We can't pretend error is okay but we can admit that we are not sure about some things and that the pro and con arguments for or against number 1 - 4 have at least seeming validity.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline poche

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    Does anyone want to start a SV religious order
    « Reply #2 on: October 21, 2013, 12:05:51 PM »
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  • You already have two to choose from
    The Society of St Pius V and the Congregation of Mary Queen Immaculate.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Does anyone want to start a SV religious order
    « Reply #3 on: October 21, 2013, 12:19:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    You already have two to choose from
    The Society of St Pius V and the Congregation of Mary Queen Immaculate.


    Good point :o)  But it would be great if they united.  Had a united front.  I forgot to mention the Thuc Line above.  They would have to agree on that and the answer is obvious.  Also the SSPV seems to hide their SV.  I went to a chapel were regulars did not know they were SV [I was a little shocked at the time but realized that is the protocol] and they have a rule not to preach about it in their Chapels.  Better not to preach on it at all than to preach against it.  But I would think they would clarify their stance for their parishioners if their main goal is truth over numbers.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline OHCA

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    Does anyone want to start a SV religious order
    « Reply #4 on: October 21, 2013, 12:46:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: poche
    You already have two to choose from
    The Society of St Pius V and the Congregation of Mary Queen Immaculate.


    Good point :o)  But it would be great if they united.  Had a united front.  I forgot to mention the Thuc Line above.  They would have to agree on that and the answer is obvious.  Also the SSPV seems to hide their SV.  I went to a chapel were regulars did not know they were SV [I was a little shocked at the time but realized that is the protocol] and they have a rule not to preach about it in their Chapels.  Better not to preach on it at all than to preach against it.  But I would think they would clarify their stance for their parishioners if their main goal is truth over numbers.

    I have a little something of an issue with the Thuc line.  My biggest deal is that the consecrations and ordinations seem il-documented.  Perhaps this is simply an erroneous impression that I have.  I don't exactly follow why Archbishop Thuc's people would be invalid if Archbishop Lefebvre's are valid.  I am simply more comfortable with Archbishop Lefebvre people because I perceive that the line is better documented and am concerned the other line may have imposters.

    I am afraid that if all traditionalist (sede & non-sede) don't unite we are going to be strewn to the winds like Old Catholics and other protestants.  Thus, I have a great deal of appreciation for how you say the SSPV chapels handle the sede question.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Does anyone want to start a SV religious order
    « Reply #5 on: October 21, 2013, 01:28:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: OHCA
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: poche
    You already have two to choose from
    The Society of St Pius V and the Congregation of Mary Queen Immaculate.


    Good point :o)  But it would be great if they united.  Had a united front.  I forgot to mention the Thuc Line above.  They would have to agree on that and the answer is obvious.  Also the SSPV seems to hide their SV.  I went to a chapel were regulars did not know they were SV [I was a little shocked at the time but realized that is the protocol] and they have a rule not to preach about it in their Chapels.  Better not to preach on it at all than to preach against it.  But I would think they would clarify their stance for their parishioners if their main goal is truth over numbers.

    I have a little something of an issue with the Thuc line.  My biggest deal is that the consecrations and ordinations seem il-documented.  Perhaps this is simply an erroneous impression that I have.  I don't exactly follow why Archbishop Thuc's people would be invalid if Archbishop Lefebvre's are valid.  I am simply more comfortable with Archbishop Lefebvre people because I perceive that the line is better documented and am concerned the other line may have imposters.

    I am afraid that if all traditionalist (sede & non-sede) don't unite we are going to be strewn to the winds like Old Catholics and other protestants.  Thus, I have a great deal of appreciation for how you say the SSPV chapels handle the sede question.


    Here you go buddy:

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CIsBEBYwCQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thucbishops.com%2FOpen_Letter_to_%2520Bp_Kelly_FULL.pdf&ei=fXFlUs7AHofD2AXukoG4Cg&usg=AFQjCNEfI2z1szOMLEsjTRRwJ3xK03T4qw&sig2=ng6jXfcmPV-7jFK1Fc_JoQ&bvm=bv.54934254,d.b2I

    I hope you can open it.  Do a search for "An Open Letter to Bishop Clarence Kelly on the ... - ThucBishops.com"

    or better yet got to www.ThucBishops.com

    Very thorough.  If you want to get to the bottom of this you will enjoy the above piece.  

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Does anyone want to start a SV religious order
    « Reply #6 on: October 21, 2013, 02:36:51 PM »
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  • You will also notice on the above site that Mario gives Bishop Kelly every opportunity to respond.  He calls him out and clearly gives anyone who has any objections a chance to object and no one came up with any substantial objections.  Bishop Kelly and Father Jenkins owe it to those to take their word on the issue to refute this time-consuming and most thorough work.  They would of they could.  Souls are at stake.  Why the silence?
    Quote

    Due to a lack of serious objections to the study as of August 3, 2013, there is currently no plan for publishing objections and replies.
    Mario Derksen.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Matto

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    Does anyone want to start a SV religious order
    « Reply #7 on: October 21, 2013, 02:45:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    4.  NFP

    5.  Those who accept harvesting organs from brain "dead" people would have to be mum on that topic though.


    I think these two issues are too important to just agree to disagree about. About NFP. some priests promote it and some priests condemn it as a mortal sin. I don't think the priests who disagree about this can be on the same side. And the issue of harvesting organs from living "brain dead" people is even more important because one side claims it is a good thing and saves lives and the other side claims it is murder. People who disagree on such an important matter would have trouble working together if every once in a while the issue comes up.
    In a Station of the Metro
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    Petals on a wet, black bough.


    Offline soulguard

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    Does anyone want to start a SV religious order
    « Reply #8 on: October 21, 2013, 03:28:13 PM »
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  • A monastery where free but respectful debate in search of wisdom is allowed would be in keeping with the true spirit of the Benedictine order. Their monasteries were known as places of learning.

    It does not even have to be SV, it could allow holders of either opinion join, but have as its main policy to reject or never implement Vatican 2.

    Offline Ambrose

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    Does anyone want to start a SV religious order
    « Reply #9 on: October 21, 2013, 05:11:52 PM »
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  • OHCA wrote:

    Quote
    I have a little something of an issue with the Thuc line.  My biggest deal is that the consecrations and ordinations seem il-documented.  Perhaps this is simply an erroneous impression that I have.  I don't exactly follow why Archbishop Thuc's people would be invalid if Archbishop Lefebvre's are valid.  I am simply more comfortable with Archbishop Lefebvre people because I perceive that the line is better documented and am concerned the other line may have imposters.


    When it comes to some Thuc line bishops, I have my reservations, such as those that derived through the Palma de Troya group.  

    I am absolutely certain of the validity of the consecrations of Carmoma, Zamora, and  Guérard des Lauriers.  

    I would urge you to read the book that Lover of Truth recommended.  There are other good studies on this as well, but in my opinion Mario Derkson's is the most thorough and is irrefutable.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline ThomisticPhilosopher

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    Does anyone want to start a SV religious order
    « Reply #10 on: October 21, 2013, 05:37:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    OHCA wrote:

    Quote
    I have a little something of an issue with the Thuc line.  My biggest deal is that the consecrations and ordinations seem il-documented.  Perhaps this is simply an erroneous impression that I have.  I don't exactly follow why Archbishop Thuc's people would be invalid if Archbishop Lefebvre's are valid.  I am simply more comfortable with Archbishop Lefebvre people because I perceive that the line is better documented and am concerned the other line may have imposters.


    When it comes to some Thuc line bishops, I have my reservations, such as those that derived through the Palma de Troya group.  

    I am absolutely certain of the validity of the consecrations of Carmoma, Zamora, and  Guérard des Lauriers.  

    I would urge you to read the book that Lover of Truth recommended.  There are other good studies on this as well, but in my opinion Mario Derkson's is the most thorough and is irrefutable.


    I would second this point, and also consider that even the rigorist Most Holy Family monastery defend the Thuc line very strongly. They have a few radio shows in their website of some interview they had about the Thuc line. I believe there are other radio shows in their website that go deeply into this issue.

    Disclaimer: The talk should be taken on its content alone, and actually contains nothing controversial. It is merely an interview...

    I agree that someone could arguably feel more comfortable with the +Lefebvre line, but the more I thought about it the whole issue to those who have scruples on the matter, it borders on Donatism/Novatianism. I can later explain this more deeply if anyone would like, right now I am writing a few other posts. I haven't had much time to post so I dedicate little minutes here and there. I also have a good response for the OP dealing on the topic of joining as a religious to a Sedevacantist or sedeplenist monastery. Sorry for not being able to respond, I am responding just give me a little more.

    +God Bless+

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    Offline OHCA

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    « Reply #11 on: October 21, 2013, 07:13:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: soulguard
    A monastery where free but respectful debate in search of wisdom is allowed would be in keeping with the true spirit of the Benedictine order. Their monasteries were known as places of learning.

    It does not even have to be SV, it could allow holders of either opinion join, but have as its main policy to reject or never implement Vatican 2.


    I like this idea TCat.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 09:30:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    4.  NFP

    5.  Those who accept harvesting organs from brain "dead" people would have to be mum on that topic though.


    I think these two issues are too important to just agree to disagree about. About NFP. some priests promote it and some priests condemn it as a mortal sin. I don't think the priests who disagree about this can be on the same side. And the issue of harvesting organs from living "brain dead" people is even more important because one side claims it is a good thing and saves lives and the other side claims it is murder. People who disagree on such an important matter would have trouble working together if every once in a while the issue comes up.


    You have a good point.  We can never compromise truth.  

    But would you agree that it is better to be mum than to preach error?  Is it better to stay divided than unite and wait for a valid Pope to settle it?

    The NFP issue is particularly confusing.  I have read on it all that can be read and have my conclusions.  But who can de fide agree or disagree with those conclusions?

    My thought is that if all the bishops could agree one way or the other on it we would be okay submitting to their conclusion.  

    Brain death is not open to debate.  Vital organs are of no use unless harvested from a living person and this can never be done for any reason.  But the head of a large SV group teaches that it is okay to donate vital organs, I suppose believing that brain death is certain death and or that organs from a dead person can save other lives despite they fact that they cannot.  Better to stay divided?  Perhaps so.  You make a good point.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #13 on: October 22, 2013, 09:38:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    OHCA wrote:

    Quote
    I have a little something of an issue with the Thuc line.  My biggest deal is that the consecrations and ordinations seem il-documented.  Perhaps this is simply an erroneous impression that I have.  I don't exactly follow why Archbishop Thuc's people would be invalid if Archbishop Lefebvre's are valid.  I am simply more comfortable with Archbishop Lefebvre people because I perceive that the line is better documented and am concerned the other line may have imposters.


    When it comes to some Thuc line bishops, I have my reservations, such as those that derived through the Palma de Troya group.  

    I am absolutely certain of the validity of the consecrations of Carmoma, Zamora, and  Guérard des Lauriers.  

    I would urge you to read the book that Lover of Truth recommended.  There are other good studies on this as well, but in my opinion Mario Derkson's is the most thorough and is irrefutable.


    Indeed.  He is incredibly thorough.  He gave them close to three years to come up with some kind of response and they are obligated to do this if they believe they are still correct but they cannot refute him.  

    Truth wins and Mario has the good fortune of presenting it.  He left absolutely no stone unturned that I could see.  I wish he would write more.  He wrote a series in Daily Catholic "3 Blind Mice [?]" or something along those line that was absolutely wonderful and entertaining.  

    In fact I need present the link now:

    Oops its "The Blind Leading the Blind"

    http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/05Oct/oct7mdi.htm

    Wonderful.  Wonderful.  Wonderful.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline GregorianChat

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    Does anyone want to start a SV religious order
    « Reply #14 on: October 22, 2013, 10:58:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    You already have two to choose from
    The Society of St Pius V and the Congregation of Mary Queen Immaculate.


    As far as sisters go, there are many more then two. Bishop Pivarunas has three different community of sisters under his care. Bishop Sanborn has a community of sisters. It's my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) that a congregation or community becomes an "order" when it is approved by a pope. Bishop Mckenna turned over care of Dominican sisters over to Bishop Neville. They are the only "order" that I know of in the USA that hold the SV position. There are many more congregations or communities that hold the SV position around the world.
    2 Thessalonians 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

    Galatians Chapter 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a

     

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