Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas  (Read 994 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline soulguard

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1698
  • Reputation: +4/-10
  • Gender: Male
Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
« on: November 18, 2013, 03:01:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If someone wants to help me understand theology better, then perhaps for wisdom sake they can post a question from Summa Theologia and explain what you think the meaning is ( the interconnectedness of Doctrine).
    I would be interested in this, thanks.


    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11662
    • Reputation: +6989/-498
    • Gender: Female
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #1 on: November 18, 2013, 03:06:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I cannot help with that but perhaps you yourself might have a question in your mind that someone could help you to resolve using St Thomas method.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline soulguard

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1698
    • Reputation: +4/-10
    • Gender: Male
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #2 on: November 18, 2013, 03:18:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Whether truth resides only in the intellect?

    Objection 1: It seems that truth does not reside only in the intellect, but rather in things. For
    Augustine (Soliloq. ii, 5) condemns this definition of truth, "That is true which is seen"; since it
    would follow that stones hidden in the bosom of the earth would not be true stones, as they are not
    seen. He also condemns the following, "That is true which is as it appears to the knower, who is
    willing and able to know," for hence it would follow that nothing would be true, unless someone
    could know it. Therefore he defines truth thus: "That is true which is." It seems, then, that truth
    resides in things, and not in the intellect.

    Objection 2: Further, whatever is true, is true by reason of truth. If, then, truth is only in the
    intellect, nothing will be true except in so far as it is understood. But this is the error of the ancient
    philosophers, who said that whatever seems to be true is so. Consequently mutual contradictories
    seem to be true as seen by different persons at the same time.

    Objection 3: Further, "that, on account of which a thing is so, is itself more so," as is evident
    from the Philosopher (Poster. i). But it is from the fact that a thing is or is not, that our thought or
    word is true or false, as the Philosopher teaches (Praedicam. iii). Therefore truth resides rather in
    things than in the intellect.
    On the contrary, The Philosopher says (Metaph. vi), " The true and the false reside not in
    things, but in the intellect."

    I answer that, As the good denotes that towards which the appetite tends, so the true denotes
    that towards which the intellect tends. Now there is this difference between the appetite and the
    intellect, or any knowledge whatsoever, that knowledge is according as the thing known is in the
    knower, whilst appetite is according as the desirer tends towards the thing desired. Thus the term
    of the appetite, namely good, is in the object desirable, and the term of the intellect, namely true,
    is in the intellect itself. Now as good exists in a thing so far as that thing is related to the
    appetite---and hence the aspect of goodness passes on from the desirable thing to the appetite, in
    so far as the appetite is called good if its object is good; so, since the true is in the intellect in so
    far as it is conformed to the object understood, the aspect of the true must needs pass from the
    intellect to the object understood, so that also the thing understood is said to be true in so far as it
    has some relation to the intellect. Now a thing understood may be in relation to an intellect either
    essentially or accidentally. It is related essentially to an intellect on which it depends as regards its
    essence; but accidentally to an intellect by which it is knowable; even as we may say that a house
    is related essentially to the intellect of the architect, but accidentally to the intellect upon which it
    does not depend.
    Now we do not judge of a thing by what is in it accidentally, but by what is in it essentially.
    Hence, everything is said to be true absolutely, in so far as it is related to the intellect from which
    it depends; and thus it is that artificial things are said to be true a being related to our intellect. For a house is said to be true that expresses the likeness of the form in the architect's mind; and words
    are said to be true so far as they are the signs of truth in the intellect. In the same way natural things
    are said to be true in so far as they express the likeness of the species that are in the divine mind.
    For a stone is called true, which possesses the nature proper to a stone, according to the preconception
    in the divine intellect. Thus, then, truth resides primarily in the intellect, and secondarily in things
    according as they are related to the intellect as their principle. Consequently there are various
    definitions of truth. Augustine says (De Vera Relig. xxxvi), "Truth is that whereby is made manifest
    that which is;" and Hilary says (De Trin. v) that "Truth makes being clear and evident" and this
    pertains to truth according as it is in the intellect. As to the truth of things in so far as they are related
    to the intellect, we have Augustine's definition (De Vera Relig. xxxvi), "Truth is a supreme likeness
    without any unlikeness to a principle": also Anselm's definition (De Verit. xii), "Truth is rightness,
    perceptible by the mind alone"; for that is right which is in accordance with the principle; also
    Avicenna's definition (Metaph. viii, 6), "The truth of each thing is a property of the essence which
    is immutably attached to it." The definition that "Truth is the equation of thought and thing" is
    applicable to it under either aspect.

    Reply to Objection 1: Augustine is speaking about the truth of things, and excludes from the
    notion of this truth, relation to our intellect; for what is accidental is excluded from every definition.

    Reply to Objection 2:
    The ancient philosophers held that the species of natural things did not
    proceed from any intellect, but were produced by chance. But as they saw that truth implies relation
    to intellect, they were compelled to base the truth of things on their relation to our intellect. From
    this, conclusions result that are inadmissible, and which the Philosopher refutes (Metaph. iv). Such,
    however, do not follow, if we say that the truth of things consists in their relation to the divine
    intellect.

    Reply to Objection 3:
    Although the truth of our intellect is caused by the thing, yet it is not
    necessary that truth should be there primarily, any more than that health should be primarily in
    medicine, rather than in the animal: for the virtue of medicine, and not its health, is the cause of
    health, for here the agent is not univocal. In the same way, the being of the thing, not its truth, is
    the cause of truth in the intellect. Hence the Philosopher says that a thought or a word is true "from
    the fact that a thing is, not because a thing is true."

    ----
    Ok here is my questions.
    Does he define truth as a moral good in an of itself, in that he distinguishes between TRUTH and REALITY and interprets the notion of truth to mean an opinion that validates the good?

    Does he, thinkest thou, believe that a thing is believed to be true only by the agreement of the will to its merits?

    It seems he defines truth differently than I do, for I hold that reality is truth, but apparently he holds that a moral good formulated by the intellect can be the truth.

    Offline Frances

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2660
    • Reputation: +2241/-22
    • Gender: Female
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #3 on: November 18, 2013, 03:25:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  •  :scratchchin:Truth and Reality are revealed by God to the intellect.  One does not form or subsist within the other.  Remember what God told Moses to tell Pharaoh?  "I AM, THAT I AM."  
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  

    Offline soulguard

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1698
    • Reputation: +4/-10
    • Gender: Male
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #4 on: November 18, 2013, 03:34:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Frances
    :scratchchin:Truth and Reality are revealed by God to the intellect.  One does not form or subsist within the other.  Remember what God told Moses to tell Pharaoh?  "I AM, THAT I AM."  


    So you are saying Francis that the truth and reality are inseperable?
    If that is the case then how is truth only recognised as such when the intellect admits it to be so ( according to Aquinas). And can the mere recognition of truth be all there is to truth?

    It seems that Aquinas thinks that truth is defined by man, since he needs it to be recognised by the intellect before it can be called truth.
    OR is this all a moral position and a clash of words?
     :tinfoil:

    (ps the fool is me)


    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #5 on: November 18, 2013, 07:33:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    Quote from: soulguard

    Ok here is [are] my questions.

    Does he define truth as a moral good in an [and] of itself,



    St. Thomas, in this question, is not speaking of moral good, specifically.

    For example, in Genesis where it says that God saw that His creation was
    good, it is meant as an objective reality, and has no bearing on morality.

    There are eight articles under The Question 16, "Of Truth."  You have
    focused alone on Article FIRST, "Whether Truth Resides Only in the Intellect?"
    but then you are discussing the topic addressed in Article FOURTH, "Whether
    Good Is Prior Logically to the True?" and in some manner also in Articles
    SECOND and THIRD.

    It is important to recognize the hierarchy of topics in the Summa, for there
    are many places where the material overlaps and due to the terminology,
    it is easy to forget where you are and think about someplace where you
    would be.  

    Modern man is extremely prone to "jump topic" in this way, in fact, this
    is the most prominent vice of protestantism -- which, recall, that it was
    nowhere in sight at the time of this compendium's composition.  St.
    Thomas wrote in the 13th century and protesantism did not emerge in
    full aspect until the 16th century (although it can be said it was somewhat
    latent for one or two centuries prior to Luther, et. al.).

    To avoid this penchant that leads to confusion, it is necessary for us these
    days to be not only cognizant of the danger of distraction, but to allow
    the Angelic Doctor his due time in our assessment of each topic as he
    presents it, and then, when we have a specific question, we need to look
    for his treatment of that specifically and not just stop at the first Article
    that seems to be the one that applies (because it might not be).


    Quote
    in that he distinguishes between TRUTH and REALITY and interprets the notion of truth to mean an opinion that validates the good?



    Truth as opinion is not the primary subject of Article FIRST.


    Quote
    Does he, thinkest thou, believe that a thing is believed to be true only by the agreement of the will to its merits?



    Once again, you should not first study modern philosophy and then from
    that corrupted foundation, attempt to make St. Thomas say something
    that he never said.  


    Quote
    It seems he defines truth differently than I do, for I hold that reality is truth, but apparently he holds that a moral good formulated by the intellect can be the truth.




    St. Thomas defines truth just fine.  It is the modern philosophers, to whom
    you defer, who have it all screwed up.  


    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Pyrrhos

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 445
    • Reputation: +341/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #6 on: November 19, 2013, 10:08:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Dear Soulguard,

    I am very glad that you are studying the Angelic and Common Doctor, who has been presented us by the Church as the greatest luminary in theology as well as philosophy.
    I would advise anybody, though, who wishes to study both subjects in greater depth, to consult competent teachers and the approved manuals. One can hardly study theology without a sufficient knowledge of perennial philosophy.
    Any handbook of Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophy would have explained the topic very well (and much better than me). I don't know about many English manuals, maybe somebody else can help, but Cardinal Mercier's "Manual of Modern Scholastic Philosophy" seems to be a good start.

    Your questions concerns the subject of Criteriology.
    The great Doctor of the Order of Friars Preachers expounds that we speak of objects we know and of things that are true in as much as we predicate truth to them. We say: this is true stone (if it is not, say, plaster) or it is true that 1+1 equals two.
    Here, the object of our knowledge is true: The stone is true stone if it corresponds with the definition we hold for a stone and we say that one and one is the same as two.

    This is what we call objective or ontological truth, i.e., when speaking about objects or their attributes known by us, or subjective or logical truth when we consider truth as an attribute of our knowledge.
    Nobody speaks about “true” as a thing by itself, ontological truth always implies a relation between things. We compare definite things, e.g. the stone, with another thing, e.g. plaster.
    In general: We apply the predicate “true” to a thing when it corresponds to the thing thought of in our mind, the idea of the thing thought of by the mind is verified by the by the idea we have formed of it's nature.
    Objective truth is the conformity of or relation between two thought-objects, one perceived, one pre-conceived. This conformity is objective as it is based on the nature of the thing represented.
    This is a central point, as the famous Scholastic axioms follows: Veritas est adaequatio rei et intellectus. Truth is the conformity of thing and intellect. The exact conformity of a thing (adaequatio vel conformitas, the schoolmen would say), of the thing perceived with the mental type is its truth.
    As I said, this is a central piece of Aristotelian-Thomistic Criteriology.

    Before you object: One can say that the thing considered in itself is fundamentally true. But we (with St. Thomas) are concerned with formal truth, which is only in relations.

    If you wish, we can continue to speak about logical truths as well as certitude, the latter being of special import in the stark difference between Kantian and Scholastic thought.


    I am not a great philosopher and my explanation is far from adequate, but I hope it can help a little bit. It is advisable to study the whole system of truth developed by Aquinas, as this is only the beginning of the analytic part. Maybe Mario153 from the other philosophical thread, who seemed to be so much more competent than me, can be of further help.
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #7 on: November 19, 2013, 11:12:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I am very pleased to see a thread like this.  Thanks for asking the question soulguard.  People asking questions is how we learn.  For everyone that asks there are probably 10 or 100 that had the same question.  

    I'm no expert either and probably would not qualify as a beginner but one of the most common problems encountered today in studying Aquinas is his terminology which is not commonly used today.  

    I searched for a while for definitions to scholastic terminology with little success.  If anyone runs across such an item I would be greatly interested.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #8 on: November 19, 2013, 11:34:24 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    I am very pleased to see a thread like this.  Thanks for asking the question soulguard.  People asking questions is how we learn.  For everyone that asks there are probably 10 or 100 that had the same question.  

    I'm no expert either and probably would not qualify as a beginner but one of the most common problems encountered today in studying Aquinas is his terminology which is not commonly used today.  

    I searched for a while for definitions to scholastic terminology with little success.  If anyone runs across such an item I would be greatly interested.  


    Reading Aquinas and thinking you know what he has to say based on the
    translation into English, for example (the original is in Latin), and then
    complicated by the connotation if not denotation of many key words as
    we commonly use them today will leave you entirely confused.

    You won't have any idea what the Angelic Doctor is talking about.

    Example:

    When he says "artificial" immediately we think "imitation" like plastic,
    or GMO foods, or ersatz knock-off (e.g. made in China 'Rolex' watches).
    But that isn't it at all.  He is using the word (and I expect this will be the
    case at all times in the Summa) as regards to something made by an
    artist or a craftsman, as in an artifice.

    This break with cultural context is one of the circuмstances that makes
    it so easy for modern philosophers to misquote the ancients and to
    presume from the start that they had it 'all wrong'.



    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline soulguard

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1698
    • Reputation: +4/-10
    • Gender: Male
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #9 on: November 19, 2013, 12:03:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Pyrrhos
    Dear Soulguard,

    I am very glad that you are studying the Angelic and Common Doctor, who has been presented us by the Church as the greatest luminary in theology as well as philosophy.
    I would advise anybody, though, who wishes to study both subjects in greater depth, to consult competent teachers and the approved manuals. One can hardly study theology without a sufficient knowledge of perennial philosophy.
    Any handbook of Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophy would have explained the topic very well (and much better than me). I don't know about many English manuals, maybe somebody else can help, but Cardinal Mercier's "Manual of Modern Scholastic Philosophy" seems to be a good start.

    Your questions concerns the subject of Criteriology.
    The great Doctor of the Order of Friars Preachers expounds that we speak of objects we know and of things that are true in as much as we predicate truth to them. We say: this is true stone (if it is not, say, plaster) or it is true that 1+1 equals two.
    Here, the object of our knowledge is true: The stone is true stone if it corresponds with the definition we hold for a stone and we say that one and one is the same as two.

    This is what we call objective or ontological truth, i.e., when speaking about objects or their attributes known by us, or subjective or logical truth when we consider truth as an attribute of our knowledge.
    Nobody speaks about “true” as a thing by itself, ontological truth always implies a relation between things. We compare definite things, e.g. the stone, with another thing, e.g. plaster.
    In general: We apply the predicate “true” to a thing when it corresponds to the thing thought of in our mind, the idea of the thing thought of by the mind is verified by the by the idea we have formed of it's nature.
    Objective truth is the conformity of or relation between two thought-objects, one perceived, one pre-conceived. This conformity is objective as it is based on the nature of the thing represented.
    This is a central point, as the famous Scholastic axioms follows: Veritas est adaequatio rei et intellectus. Truth is the conformity of thing and intellect. The exact conformity of a thing (adaequatio vel conformitas, the schoolmen would say), of the thing perceived with the mental type is its truth.
    As I said, this is a central piece of Aristotelian-Thomistic Criteriology.

    Before you object: One can say that the thing considered in itself is fundamentally true. But we (with St. Thomas) are concerned with formal truth, which is only in relations.

    If you wish, we can continue to speak about logical truths as well as certitude, the latter being of special import in the stark difference between Kantian and Scholastic thought.


    I am not a great philosopher and my explanation is far from adequate, but I hope it can help a little bit. It is advisable to study the whole system of truth developed by Aquinas, as this is only the beginning of the analytic part. Maybe Mario153 from the other philosophical thread, who seemed to be so much more competent than me, can be of further help.


    Informative post Pyhros!
    That suffices to answer my questions.
    Apparently the problem was, as lover of truth said, is that the language he used does not have the same meaning today. He speaks of truth as known by man, apparently because he thinks the church is the judge of truth, but truth has a different meaning today, a meaning without any one body exclusively adjudicating on it. Now we have courts, and advanced science for example. That makes people think that truth is not to be found exclusively in the church.

    Learn something new everyday!
     :guitar:

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #10 on: November 19, 2013, 12:18:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • N.O.  Do you have definitions of scholastic terminology.  

    For instance, and I do understand this, Saint Thomas speaks often of "accidents" of the "species" when speaking of the Eucharist, does that mean the Sacraments get in car wrecks.  And he keeps saying God is "simple" but I thought He was smart.  :laugh1:

    Also, what is your opinion on his teaching on the Immaculate Conception.  Did he teach error or was he simply unable to reconcile the fact that all are conceived in Original Sin and that none can be cleansed of it apart from the merits of Jesus Christ and the fact that Mary was indeed conceived and that Jesus had not merited salvation from the cross yet?  

    Some of course use that to say we can't trust anything he writes.   :devil2:

    I would like to body-slam those people.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Pyrrhos

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 445
    • Reputation: +341/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #11 on: November 19, 2013, 01:28:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If memory serves right, "ABC of Scholastic Philosophy" by A. C. Cotter offers a vary basic understanding of Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophy and explains the most common terms.

    In regards to the Angelic Doctor and the Immaculate conception, there surely is some controversy on the subject. There is more to it than meets the eye, as some advocates of the Immaculate Conception in his period were correct in their faith, but explained it in an erroneous way. It is only with the heavenly doctrine of St. Thomas that the stainless conception of Our Lady could be expounded in all its glory. The most common opinion is that he changed his mind on the subject twice, returning in the end of his life to belief in the Immaculate Conception.

    I personally share the opinion of the great Dominican scholar Fr. Norberto del Pardo, (in his tome Divus Thomas et Bulla Dogmatica «Ineffabilis Deus», Fribourg 1919) who explained that it is ridiculous that St. Thomas contradicted himself several times on such an important matter and actually refuted certain wrong types of "immaculate conceptions" in vogue during certain periods, while adhering to the correct explanation of the Immaculate Conception in the manner of St. Augustine, St. Anselm, St. Bernard, St. Albert the Great and St. Bonaventure which was employed in the Dogmatic Bull "Ineffabilis Deus".
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus

    Offline Ambrose

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3447
    • Reputation: +2429/-13
    • Gender: Male
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #12 on: November 19, 2013, 01:49:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Soulguard,

    Pyrrhos answer is very good advice.  I would urge you to purchase and read Msgr. Glenn's Tour of the Summa for starters, found [url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895550814/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0895550814&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20

    The terminology of the Summa is complex, and the terms sometimes have different meaning than the common usage today.

    It is good to build yourself with some easier books before going to the higher level.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #13 on: November 19, 2013, 02:43:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Soulguard,

    Pyrrhos answer is very good advice.  I would urge you to purchase and read Msgr. Glenn's Tour of the Summa for starters, found

    Msgr. Glenn's Tour of the Summa

    That was the name I could not think of.  I recommend that as well.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Does anyone want to help explain St Aquinas
    « Reply #14 on: November 20, 2013, 02:31:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    N.O.  Do you have definitions of scholastic terminology.  

    For instance, and I do understand this, Saint Thomas speaks often of "accidents" of the "species" when speaking of the Eucharist, does that mean the Sacraments get in car wrecks.  And he keeps saying God is "simple" but I thought He was smart.  :laugh1:




    I have known people with a very solid Catholic sense who
    want nothing to do with philosophy almost entirely on the
    grounds of the terminology, so you are wise to be cautious
    here.  This one word, "accidents," has sent many students
    packing who may have been able to study the subject well
    had it not been for their frustration over that one word.  

    Therefore, it seems to me that any good philosophia
    perennis
    course will spend the first day of class on
    vocabulary, or maybe the second day after making a brief
    introduction the first day.  


    It may be useful to know that whenever St. Thomas is
    referring to St. Paul he says, "the Apostle," and likewise,
    whenever you see St. Thomas refer to "the Philosopher"
    he is talking about Aristotle, the famous philosopher
    from ancient Greece (384 - 322 B.C.) ......




    Statue of Aristotle, at Stagira, Greece

    Photo by Cynthia Freeland



    Imagine the intellect of a man whose prolific and abundant
    thoughts and natural reasoning were such that they would
    endure for 3,500 years, and still have no end in sight.  For
    a man of St. Thomas' stature to refer to him as "THE
    PHILOSOPHER"
    and we are still quoting him as such today,
    is a phenomenon that speaks for itself.  Compare that to a
    man today who may be remembered long into the future
    as "The Politician" or "The Banker" or "The Environmentalist"
    or "The Rock Star" or "The Movie Actor" or "The Used Car
    Salesman" or "The Football Player." (Yes, that was a joke.)


    It is largely his system of philosophy that St. Thomas took
    and used to build the framework of philosophical thought that
    would work with the divine revelation of Our Lord in the New
    Testament.  He was the first saint of the Church to put it all
    together, but he "stood on the shoulders of giants" to do so,
    meaning he would never have been able to do it alone without
    the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.  

    Among the systems adopted from Aristotle ("the Philosopher")
    is his famous Ten Categories of Accidents, which provide detail
    and specificity for a thing about which we are talking.  

    I found a website that has the following portion of an article
    on "Substance and Accident" that seems to be well written,
    (if you can look past the typos -- but he's Dutch, so there are
    a lot of differences he must grapple with) and culminates with
    the Philosopher's list of the 10 Categories.  

    I am not putting this paste-in here because I agree with, or
    recommend, the entire website (which is pretty large relatively
    speaking, and he heavily promotes 'evolution' and therefore
    possibly errors of modern philosophy too), but because the
    author, Jaap Bax, of Holland, seems to give a colloquial and
    easily worded approach to this particular topic, at hand.  To
    make it a little more readable I repaired a few typos and
    broke up one long paragraph into several.

    (Please keep in mind while reading such sites that the very
    root of Modernism is in the statement of a philosopher saying
    that "God is immanent."  Three little words establish the root
    from which the synthesis of all heresies then grows.) :




     The System of Categories (Substance and Accidents)


    The (type of) metaphysics, here developed, is a contemplation from the point of view of the in the real world existing individual uniform thing (first substance). Such a first substance shows, i.e. implies, several ways of being which can be denoted by Second Substance (a first way of being), and the Accidents (several other ways of being).

    When we ask questions concerning the what-about of these ways of being, it is possible to give more and more generalized answers.  For example:  when we ask, "what is (being) red?" (what does it mean that this individual thing -- pointing to it with my finger -- is red?), we can answer, "a color";  and when we ask, "but what is a color?", then we can give some more general answer [etc.].  This process can go on, but not indefinitely. We will arrive at a highest concept, in this case the concept of Quality.

    The same applies to other items : When we ask, "what is (being) 1.50 meters long?" [and follow repeatedly with subsequent questions of a more and more general nature], we will [eventually] end up with the concept of Quantity.

    And when we ask, "what is (being) Socrates?", we ascend from man to mammal to vertebrate to animal to organism to .... Second Substance.


    [And when we ask, "What is (being) God?", we ascend from
    from First Cause to Pure Act, which is really no change at all,
    because both are unique to God alone and there are no parts
    in God (which is what we mean by saying "God is simple") and
    there is no way to make God more specific or more general.  
    He is Who is Being itself, and He told St. Catherine of Siena,
    "I am He Who is, and you are she who is not." Jaap Bax
    would no doubt turn himself into a pretzel over that one!), etc.  
    I defer to the first volume of the Summa Theologiae.  
    The author of this website conspicuously avoids that, as
    "irrelevant material."]


    All these questions concern a particular first substance, and the answers are given in terms of second substance and accidents in their most generalized form. In this way, we arrive at the most general concepts concerning the being of a thing. Those concepts form a logically irreducible diversity.

    But because the items which are signified by those concepts are all united in an individual (that means, every time in one and the same individual, for example Socrates), they must somehow form a unity. And because Metaphysics is primarily about existing individual beings (uniform things), and only secondarily about concepts (which is the domain of Logic), Metaphysics says that those items, signified by those concepts [secondarily considered], severally, but also together, form an analogical unity.

    Analogical because 'being', which is convertible with unity, is predicated of them differently. For example a color, say 'red', is only in an analogical sense called a being;  [for] it always exists in something else which is being in a primary sense (this is the first substance).


    [When St. Thomas speaks of this, he says that accidents are
    contingent beings.  But then again, man himself is a
    contingent being, as he is dependent upon God for his very
    existence.  The author of this website I am quoting here
    seems to be atheist, so he isn't going to get into these
    matters to which I relate here.]


    It's now time to sum up the basic questions about a first substance -- the Subject -- leading to Aristotle's famous 10 Categories (the examples are his) :

        What the Subject is : SECOND SUBSTANCE , for ex. it is (a) human, (a) horse.
        What the measure of the Subject is : QUANTITY, for ex. it is 2 or 3 yards.
        What the disposition of the Subject is : QUALITY, for ex. it is white, skilled in languages.
        To which the Subject stands in relation with: RELATION, for ex. double, half, larger.
        What the Subject has: HABIT, for ex. having shoes on, being armed.
        When the Subject is: POINT OF TIME, for ex. yesterday, in the year before.
        Where the Subject is: PLACE, for ex. in the Lyceum, on the market.
        What the inner orientation of the Subject is: ORIENTATION, for ex. lying, sitting.
        What the Subject is doing: ACTION, for ex. it cuts, burns (something else).
        What the Subject undergoes: PASSION, for ex. it is being cutted [it seems he means "cut"], it is being burned.



    [This essential list has been re-arranged by others over
    the centuries, but the core principle of each has been
    maintained and no one has been able to identify an 11th
    accident category, or show how there really ought to be
    9 for whatever reason.  This list has stood the test of
    ages, IOW.]




    Quote
    Also, what is your opinion on his teaching on the Immaculate Conception?

    Did he teach error or was he simply unable to reconcile the fact that all are conceived in Original Sin and that none can be cleansed of it apart from the merits of Jesus Christ and the fact that Mary was indeed conceived and that Jesus had not merited salvation from the cross yet?  



    St. Thomas was a busy guy, pulling together a lot of theory and
    thinking from many centuries.  Among them was the prevalent
    scientific axiom of  "the ensoulment"  of the body, which they
    thought did not occur until 32 days or so for a boy and for 62 or
    so days for a girl.  Therefore, logically, it seems to me that, he
    would have been torn between the growing embryo in the womb
    of St. Anne being "immaculately conceived" or NOT, when to be
    free from sin, 'it' would have had to have had a SOUL.

    So it would seem he was making an innocent error with this.

    In his uninformed attempt to make sense out of nonsense, I
    would cut him a lot of slack, and expect that he would have
    certainly submitted his theological opinion to the authority of
    Holy Mother Church had there been a dogmatic definition in his
    time.  But there was not.  Ironically, he would have been one of
    the first experts the Pope would have consulted before defining
    this very thing!  

    The same applies to other theological speculations, for even
    today there are many who think they are doctrinal, when they
    are in fact entirely open to discussion and debate -- just as the
    Immaculate Conception was open to discussion and debate in
    the 13th century, along with EENS and papal infallibility and the
    Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary body and soul into
    heaven:  the reason being, that they had not been dogmatically
    defined yet at that time.  


    I highly doubt that the Angelic Doctor would have had any
    problem with the doctrine of Our Lady receiving the singular
    grace of her preservation from original sin in ANTICIPATION of
    Our Lord's salvific work of shedding His Blood, even if it had
    been in His circuмcision, which occurred many years before His
    Passion and Cross.



    Quote
    Some of course use that to say we can't trust anything he writes.   :devil2:

    I would like to body-slam those people.  



    You're not the only one!!  HAHAHAHAHA


    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.