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Author Topic: Does a material pope have temporal authority?  (Read 6592 times)

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Offline Geremia

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Does a material pope have temporal authority?
« on: December 19, 2023, 06:16:16 PM »
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    • According to sedeprivationism, does a material pope have temporal authority?
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Does a material pope have temporal authority?
    « Reply #1 on: December 20, 2023, 12:32:23 PM »
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    • I highly suggest the reading on archives or the book "The True Story of the Council" by Cardinal Manning.  He answers questions on this issue and a book on Temporary Powers.  Cardinal Manning states how the nomination of a Pope is infallible.  But question is, can a validly nominated Pope go wrong in his pontificate and the answer is yes.

    IMO for example: Pope Pius XI when asked or commanded by God through His Mother, said the hour is now to consecrate Russia, 1929, Tuy, Spain.  This message given to sister Lucia.  We all know he did not do it.  A command!!  A command of God, and he didn't do it.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does a material pope have temporal authority?
    « Reply #2 on: December 20, 2023, 03:08:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on December 20, 2023, 12:32:23 PM
    I highly suggest the reading on archives or the book "The True Story of the Council" by Cardinal Manning.  He answers questions on this issue and a book on Temporary Powers.  Cardinal Manning states how the nomination of a Pope is infallible.  But question is, can a validly nominated Pope go wrong in his pontificate and the answer is yes.

    IMO for example: Pope Pius XI when asked or commanded by God through His Mother, said the hour is now to consecrate Russia, 1929, Tuy, Spain.  This message given to sister Lucia.  We all know he did not do it.  A command!!  A command of God, and he didn't do it. 

    What does a Pope not consecrating Russia have to do with infallibility?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does a material pope have temporal authority?
    « Reply #3 on: December 20, 2023, 03:09:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on December 19, 2023, 06:16:16 PM
    According to sedeprivationism, does a material pope have temporal authority?

    I should think so.  Even within the Church, he can make appointments, etc.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Does a material pope have temporal authority?
    « Reply #4 on: February 29, 2024, 02:21:58 PM »
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    • John of St. Thomas (CURSUS THEOLOGICUS In Summa Thelologicam D. Thomas, Tomus VII, IN SECUNDAM SECUNDÆ DIVI THOMÆ, Quæstio I, DE FIDE, DE AUCTORITATE SUMMI PONTIFICIS, Parisiis Ludovixus Vivês, Editor, 1886, p. 207, sq.) seems to think a heretical pope can exercise (albeit illegitimately/tyrannically) temporal power:
    Quote from: John of St. Thomas
    [The Church] may defend itself, not by deposing him [a heretical pope], but by repelling him with force if he proceeds with violence or tyrannically, if, for example, he wished to do something against justice by the force of arms, one could repulse him with arms ; and similarly, if he were to establish something against good morals he is not to be obeyed, because an unjust law does not oblige.
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    Offline Univocity

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    Re: Does a material pope have temporal authority?
    « Reply #5 on: March 01, 2024, 06:15:08 PM »
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    • Semivacantists (or seeiprivationists) do not call Bergoglio a "material pope" but a pope materially.  It is an important distinction according to them, although I certainly disagree with their theory.  The John of St Thomas quote is irrelevant because they do not believe Bergoglio is a pope.   Now putting all that aside, are you referring to temporal control over Vatican city?  If so I don't know their answer but I would be willing to bet that they grant him this power.send in the question to Bishop Sanborn with the hash tag "#questionsfortherector"  I would be curious to hear his response.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Does a material pope have temporal authority?
    « Reply #6 on: March 01, 2024, 06:41:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Univocity on March 01, 2024, 06:15:08 PM
    The John of St Thomas quote is irrelevant because they do not believe Bergoglio is a pope.

    Well, it's irrelevant because it applies to a Pope who at least has de facto temporal authority, but makes no judgment about whether it's legitimate.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Does a material pope have temporal authority?
    « Reply #7 on: March 01, 2024, 06:54:09 PM »
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    • I believe according to international law and treaties that Bergoglio is the head of the quasi-independent nation known as the Vatican City. I think it's considered to have a sort of monarchical government, but I don't really know. Since the faith or membership in the Catholic Church is not required to be the legitimate monarch of a nation, I see no theological difficulty in this, though.
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