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Author Topic: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4  (Read 4464 times)

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Online Stubborn

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Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2019, 12:53:02 PM »
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  • .
    As Pope Innocent III said, heretic popes are already judged by God. 
    The why not let God depose heretic popes?

    Aside from that, Pope Innocent III and all the popes and cardinals since Pope Innocent II have all lost their offices due to heresy per Richard Ibranyi - who is himself a screaming example of the reason why the status of popes are not and must never be our concern in the slightest.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #46 on: March 01, 2019, 01:55:46 PM »
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    I'm perfectly capable of doing this and you have no evidence that I fail to so distinguish.
    I'm sorry if I offended you.  Not my intention.

    Quote
    You say on the one hand "of course heretics can't hold office" but then on the other hand they can and do hold office until the Church declares them heretical.  These are mutually exclusive, unless you meant something other than what you said.
    They are not mutually exclusive ideas.  The Church moves slowly on many matters, including disciplinary ones.  For example, Martin Luther nailed his 99 Thesis docuмent on Oct 31, 1517.  He wasn't excommunicated until January 1521...3 years later.  The current sede mindset would be to say that Martin Luther was excommunicated the instant he wrote/nailed his Thesis to the door, but this is not how things work.  He was not proven obstinante, he was not labeled a heretic until 3 YEARS LATER, AFTER the Church process, where he was questioned and rebuked.

    In the same way, any pope who says/writes heresy must be rebuked first, before his obstinancy is proven.  This is Step 1.  Until it is proven, he continues to hold office.  Once obstinante/manifest heresy is proven, THEN it is debatable among theologians on what happens next, 2A) automatic loss of office or 2B) a secondary Church declaration on loss of office.  2A and 2B are debated (i.e. +Bellarmine vs Cajetan) but almost all theologians agree that Step 1 must happen first.  Obstinancy hasn't been proven for any of the post-V2 popes, though the "dubia" letter is a start...


    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #47 on: March 01, 2019, 08:48:41 PM »
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  • Implicit in cuм Ex is the assumption that a heretic has been declared as such by Church officials, or the heretic has been declared in schism or has admitted to some error.  NO ONE, ESPECIALLY THE POPE, CAN BE JUDGED A HERETIC (or guilty of error) EXCEPT BY THE CHURCH.  cuм Ex is saying that if someone has been deemed in error then they can’t be elected.  

    But FIRST, the Church has to make a decision.  Step 1 can’t be skipped.  Sedes make themselves judge of orthodoxy which they have no authority to do, legally.  Any Catholic can judge actions as heretical and avoid the error; but only the Church can determine pernicity/obstinacy which happens through a process.  
    you haven't proven  without a doubt this point
    "Implicit in cuм Ex is the assumption that a heretic has been declared as such by Church officials,"

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #48 on: March 01, 2019, 09:25:54 PM »
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  • cuм Ex was in 1559.  St Robert Bellarmine died in 1621 so all his writings on a theoretical heretic pope would’ve been based partially on cuм Ex.  St Robert says the Church would have to declare a pope a heretic before he would lose his office.  Case closed.  

    What’s the alternative?  Please provide a source that says a layman or a priest can label a pope as a heretic based on their private judgement.  

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #49 on: March 01, 2019, 10:48:54 PM »
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  • The  Election of Pope Gregory XVII in 1958 makes this discussion irrelevant.  Whatever the extent of their heresies, not one of the v2 anti-popes can claim the Chair of St Peter because they have Not been legally elected... :fryingpan:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #50 on: March 02, 2019, 01:56:49 PM »
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  • cuм Ex was in 1559.  St Robert Bellarmine died in 1621 so all his writings on a theoretical heretic pope would’ve been based partially on cuм Ex.  St Robert says the Church would have to declare a pope a heretic before he would lose his office.  Case closed.  

    What’s the alternative?  Please provide a source that says a layman or a priest can label a pope as a heretic based on their private judgement.  
    obviously your case closed statement is worthless, can we agree on the following...
    1.'pope " francis" doesn't profess the catholic faith
    2. he is not a catholic
    3. we know he's an heretic but because we are just layman we have no authority to label him as such
    do we agree on these statements?

    Offline phagocytosis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #51 on: March 02, 2019, 04:30:09 PM »
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  • Yes, both St Pius X and Pius XII made exceptions for the ecclesiastical penalties (any and all penalties, including excommunication for heresy) whereby, the penalties are not in force ONLY for the conclave.  Once a pope is elected and the conclave is finished, all penalities go back in force.  Meaning, that a heretic could elect AND be elected as pope, but once the election is over, that pope is SPIRITUALLY impaired because of the SPIRITUAL penalities in force, even if they still hold the GOVT/material office.  This is what I believe we are living through.

    Sounds like sedeprivationism.
    "Be progressive, vote for policies that reduce you to a minority and slowly erode your heritage and culture - NO THANKS!" - Dr. David Duke

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #52 on: March 03, 2019, 06:29:38 PM »
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    can we agree on the following?
    1.'pope " francis" doesn't profess the catholic faith
    2. he is not a catholic
    3. we know he's an heretic but because we are just layman we have no authority to label him as such.
    1.  +Francis doesn’t profess lots of the Faith.  I can’t say all.
    2.  I can’t say he’s not Catholic because that is a judgment of his interior disposition.  I can say he does not act like a catholic many times. 
    3.  Probable that he’s obstinate (which would make him a heretic) but, agree, not for me to say because I don’t have the authority or tools to find out for sure. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #53 on: March 03, 2019, 06:30:41 PM »
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    Sounds like sedeprivationism.
    Agree.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #54 on: March 03, 2019, 06:37:23 PM »
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    The  Election of Pope Gregory XVII in 1958 makes this discussion irrelevant. 
    I agree it’s probable but it’s very unprovable and we must make decisions of Faith based on facts.  Even if it were true, Siri died before +Benedict was elected so that means +Benedict was a valid pope?  Obviously, I say yes, based on Pius XIIs Law, though I qualify and say that he’s a pope in material respects only.  His spiritual office is, arguably, under ecclesiastical penalty.  

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #55 on: March 04, 2019, 05:34:12 PM »
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  • 1.  +Francis doesn’t profess lots of the Faith.  I can’t say all.
    2.  I can’t say he’s not Catholic because that is a judgment of his interior disposition.  I can say he does not act like a catholic many times.
    3.  Probable that he’s obstinate (which would make him a heretic) but, agree, not for me to say because I don’t have the authority or tools to find out for sure.
    1.If he rejects any part of the catholic faith he rejects all, isn't this the teaching of the church?
    2. no it's judging his public disposition
    3.since we don't have the authority, who does today in this present crisis? for example if Francis states publicly hail Satan , would you
    keep to your same position?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #56 on: March 04, 2019, 07:00:07 PM »
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  • 1. Define “reject”.  Again, this requires probable obstinacy.  One man’s rejection is another man’s momentary weakness.  

    2.  Ok, I would say that publically, he doesn’t act like a catholic.  But what does my (or anyone else’s) opinion matter?  Judging the Catholicity and membership in the Church is done BY THE CHURCH.  It's not put up for a vote.  It’s why jurisdiction exists because the Church is a monarchy.  

    3.  The Church hierarchy alone could, in theory, remove a bad pope.  No other credible theologian has suggested any other alternative.  God put us in this mess and He’ll sort it out. 

    I agree with most sede arguments I just disagree with the conclusion of many sede priests, who say the seat is vacant, because the pope is a heretic, no ifs ands or buts.  This is what I call dogmatic sedevacantism and I reject it wholeheartedly.  There’s no basis for it anywhere in Church history. The Church isn’t a democracy and we aren’t Protestants who can “protest” or reject a bad pope without the Church giving us the ok first.  

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #57 on: March 13, 2019, 02:55:43 PM »
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  • The why not let God depose heretic popes?

    Aside from that, Pope Innocent III and all the popes and cardinals since Pope Innocent II have all lost their offices due to heresy per Richard Ibranyi - who is himself a screaming example of the reason why the status of popes are not and must never be our concern in the slightest.
    OK, I'm not a Sedevacantist (I'm also, to be clear, new to the faith, and not presuming to teach anyone, nor do I have a definitive position beyond "I definitely have concerns about Vatican II").  

    But I don't see how R + R over Sedevacantism fixes the particular problem of guys like Richard Ibryani.  Couldn't an R + R theoretically go nuts in a similar way?  "Well, I think all these guys were Popes, I just think every council since Lateran I was a pastoral council on some ridiculous technicality, and I also think since the popes of the last thousand years were flirting with the edges of heresy, we're certainly obligated to ignore anything they say that isn't infallible, which is also everything 'cause Vatican I itself was only pastoral and full of errors" or something.  Admittedly, I have this same beef with Sedevacantists that accuse R + R types of "sifting the magisterium of the guys they consider to be the true popes and only accepting what they think is in conformity to Tradition."  I mean, the Sedes do that too, they sift their magisterium, decide they don't think it lines up, and thus they decide they don't think those guys are popes at all.  What's the difference?

    Honestly, the more pertinent thing to me with guys like RI is, while its somewhere on the outer skirts of my plausibility structure that the Church might be left with no *Pope* for a really long time, I can't see any way how you can have no faithful bishops without the gates of Hell prevailing.  I mean at that point you're at Protestant level "well, there are some people, somewhere, keeping the true faith" level territory, at which point a visible ecclesiology becomes kinda meaningless.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #58 on: March 13, 2019, 03:22:35 PM »
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    Admittedly, I have this same beef with Sedevacantists that accuse R + R types of "sifting the magisterium of the guys they consider to be the true popes and only accepting what they think is in conformity to Tradition."  I mean, the Sedes do that too, they sift their magisterium, decide they don't think it lines up, and thus they decide they don't think those guys are popes at all.  What's the difference?
    Agree, both sides are not foolproof in their logic.

    Quote
    Honestly, the more pertinent thing to me with guys like RI is, while its somewhere on the outer skirts of my plausibility structure that the Church might be left with no *Pope* for a really long time, I can't see any way how you can have no faithful bishops without the gates of Hell prevailing.  I mean at that point you're at Protestant level "well, there are some people, somewhere, keeping the true faith" level territory, at which point a visible ecclesiology becomes kinda meaningless.
    During the Arian heresy (300s-400s) Catholic historians say most Catholics were infected with error to some degree (just like now), save St Athanasius (1 bishop) and a few laity, so it's happened before in Church history.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #59 on: March 13, 2019, 03:58:53 PM »
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  • I admit I’m kinda going off what I found convincing enough to get me to leave Protestantism in the first place, but one bishop and some laity I could definitely believe, especially for a short time (decades, not centuries)

    If I believed the Catholic Church could get to the point that RI describes I’d just be a Protestant because I don’t really see much difference at that point