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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: sedevacantist3 on February 26, 2019, 08:33:52 AM

Title: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: sedevacantist3 on February 26, 2019, 08:33:52 AM
Would like your opinions on the following 

Now, since cuм Ex Apostolatus was only concerned with “the practical execution of previous penal laws, which by their nature are disciplinary,” as Cardinal Hergenrother explained, its penalties could be, and indeed were, abrogated when the 1917 Code of Canon law came into force. Canon 5.2 explains:
 
That which pertains to penalties, of which there is no mention made in this Code, be they spiritual or temporal, remedial or, as they call it, punitive, automatic or declared through a judgment, they are to be held as abrogated.
 
       None of the prescriptions contained incuм Ex Apostolatus Officio were included in the 1917 Code, and consequently they were all officially and authoritatively abrogated.
       The Sedevacantist bishop, Donald Sanborn, also acknowledges the papal Bull is no longer in force. Wrote Sanborn:
 
cuм ex apostolatus is an apostolic constitution, a law, made by Pope Paul IV, which says that if a pope should be a heretic, his elevation to this dignity would be null. It was made in order to ensure that no Protestant could ever become the Pope. It does not apply to the present case for two reasons. The first is that it is no longer the law. It was derogated (made obsolete) by the 1917 Code of Canon Law.”
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 26, 2019, 08:43:49 AM
Yes, both St Pius X and Pius XII made exceptions for the ecclesiastical penalties (any and all penalties, including excommunication for heresy) whereby, the penalties are not in force ONLY for the conclave.  Once a pope is elected and the conclave is finished, all penalities go back in force.  Meaning, that a heretic could elect AND be elected as pope, but once the election is over, that pope is SPIRITUALLY impaired because of the SPIRITUAL penalities in force, even if they still hold the GOVT/material office.  This is what I believe we are living through. 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: sedevacantist3 on February 26, 2019, 11:40:14 AM
Will look into that, what would you reply to the following 

In its provision on loss of ecclesiastical office without declaration (canon 188.4), the 1917 Code of Canon Law quotes this bull for its teaching on loss of office through heresy.  This demonstrates that the Code’s teaching on loss of office without a declaration through heresy (and a Catholic’s ability to recognize it) is in accord with this bull
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 26, 2019, 12:13:22 PM
A papal bull overrides canon law.  St Pius X and Pius XII's changes to Church penalties are part of the "binding and loosing" power of the papacy.  They would be in addition to canon law, but of a higher authority, so would overrule it.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: sedevacantist3 on February 26, 2019, 12:20:11 PM
I’m a little confused , i thought you agreed that the canin law abolished the papal bull but now you are stating no?
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Markus on February 26, 2019, 02:11:39 PM
Could you change that yellow text to something else? :)
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: sedevacantist3 on February 26, 2019, 02:38:14 PM
Ya sorry,I’m not tech savy, here’s the link
 
http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/blog-page_19.html (http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/blog-page_19.html)
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: ihsv on February 26, 2019, 02:39:37 PM
Quote
Would like your opinions on the following

Now, since cuм Ex Apostolatus was only concerned with “the practical execution of previous penal laws, which by their nature are disciplinary,” as Cardinal Hergenrother explained, its penalties could be, and indeed were, abrogated when the 1917 Code of Canon law came into force. Canon 5.2 explains:

That which pertains to penalties, of which there is no mention made in this Code, be they spiritual or temporal, remedial or, as they call it, punitive, automatic or declared through a judgment, they are to be held as abrogated.

None of the prescriptions contained incuм Ex Apostolatus Officio were included in the 1917 Code, and consequently they were all officially and authoritatively abrogated.

The Sedevacantist bishop, Donald Sanborn, also acknowledges the papal Bull is no longer in force. Wrote Sanborn:

cuм ex apostolatus is an apostolic constitution, a law, made by Pope Paul IV, which says that if a pope should be a heretic, his elevation to this dignity would be null. It was made in order to ensure that no Protestant could ever become the Pope. It does not apply to the present case for two reasons. The first is that it is no longer the law. It was derogated (made obsolete) by the 1917 Code of Canon Law.”


Does this help?
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 26, 2019, 03:18:03 PM
There are 3 papal laws in question.  The first was the "cuм Ex" bull, then the 2 laws by St Pius X and Pius XII (his was not a bull but an apostolic constitution).  The canon law of 1917 overrides "cuм Ex" because it's a newer law.  Pius XII's law would overrule the 1917 code, if there was a disagreement.  Pius XII's law was almost the same law as St Pius X's law, so i'm guessing that he made this reiteration in case there was confusion on St Pius X's intention (i.e. if there was a question if the 1917 canon law was supposed to overrule his previous law).  In any case, "cuм Ex" is null and the most recent law on the books is Pius XII's.

34. No Cardinal, by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, in-terdict or other ecclesiastical impediment whatsoever can be excluded in any way from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff. Moreover, we suspend such censures for the effect only of this election, even though they shall remain otherwise in force.” (Cons. “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis,” 8 December 1945)
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: sedevacantist3 on February 26, 2019, 08:09:30 PM
Finally, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity,  how csnthe canon of 1917 override this?
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 26, 2019, 09:34:12 PM
It doesn't override it.  Therefore, we can have a heretic pope.  Most sedes just ignore this fact.  If anything, we're in a sedeprivationist situation (where the pope still holds the material office but not the spiritual because as soon as he was elected, his excommunication kicked back in), but it still means there's a pope...who could gain back his spiritual office were he to convert.  

My opinion is that St Pius X and Pius XII saw the writing on the wall; they saw the growing #s of heretic bishops/cardinals; the growing # of closet heretics/freemasons/communists and they knew they had to protect the papacy by keeping it occupied by any means, for the "normal" rules would mean that there would be almost no orthodox cardinals to elect.  So they changed the rules to allow a heretic or heretic-leaning Cardinal to be elected (and elect others) so that at least the papacy wouldn't end.  For as much as the Church needs a temporal AND spiritual ruler, if She at least has a temporal ruler, a temporal symbol of unity, this would at least keep the faithful united and calm amidst the storms of modernism that were brewing at the time (and that now we see the full effects of).
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on February 26, 2019, 11:27:41 PM
It doesn't override it.  Therefore, we can have a heretic pope.  Most sedes just ignore this fact.  If anything, we're in a sedeprivationist situation (where the pope still holds the material office but not the spiritual because as soon as he was elected, his excommunication kicked back in), but it still means there's a pope...who could gain back his spiritual office were he to convert.  

My opinion is that St Pius X and Pius XII saw the writing on the wall; they saw the growing #s of heretic bishops/cardinals; the growing # of closet heretics/freemasons/communists and they knew they had to protect the papacy by keeping it occupied by any means, for the "normal" rules would mean that there would be almost no orthodox cardinals to elect.  So they changed the rules to allow a heretic or heretic-leaning Cardinal to be elected (and elect others) so that at least the papacy wouldn't end.  For as much as the Church needs a temporal AND spiritual ruler, if She at least has a temporal ruler, a temporal symbol of unity, this would at least keep the faithful united and calm amidst the storms of modernism that were brewing at the time (and that now we see the full effects of).
St Pius X11 might have changed the ecclesiastic laws but they can't change divine laws...no?
also
 you wrote "The canon law of 1917 overrides "cuм Ex" because it's a newer law." but now say it doesn't over ride..I'm just a little confused

how can we possibly have a heretic pope? what fact if the following is not overridden?
Pope Paul IV, Bull cuм ex Apostolatus Officio, Feb. 15, 1559: “6. In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We enact, determine, decree and define:] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:(i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless; (ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation; (iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way... (vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power... 7. Finally, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, define and decree]: that any and all persons who would have been subject to those thus promoted or elevated if they had not previously deviated from the Faith, become heretics, incurred schism or provoked or committed any or all of these, be they members of anysoever of the following categories: (i) the clergy, secular and religious; (ii) the laity; (iii) the Cardinals [etc.]... shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering). 10. No one at all, therefore, may infringe this docuмent of our approbation, re-introduction, sanction, statute and derogation of wills and decrees, or by rash presumption contradict it. If anyone, however, should presume to attempt this, let him know that he is destined to incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul. Given in Rome at Saint Peter's in the year of the Incarnation of the Lord 1559, 15th February, in the fourth year of our Pontificate. + I, Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church...”
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Stubborn on February 27, 2019, 06:24:00 AM
There are 3 papal laws in question.  The first was the "cuм Ex" bull, then the 2 laws by St Pius X and Pius XII (his was not a bull but an apostolic constitution).  The canon law of 1917 overrides "cuм Ex" because it's a newer law.  Pius XII's law would overrule the 1917 code, if there was a disagreement.  Pius XII's law was almost the same law as St Pius X's law, so i'm guessing that he made this reiteration in case there was confusion on St Pius X's intention (i.e. if there was a question if the 1917 canon law was supposed to overrule his previous law).  In any case, "cuм Ex" is null and the most recent law on the books is Pius XII's.

34. No Cardinal, by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, in-terdict or other ecclesiastical impediment whatsoever can be excluded in any way from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff. Moreover, we suspend such censures for the effect only of this election, even though they shall remain otherwise in force.” (Cons. “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis,” 8 December 1945)
Actually, both Pius X and XII did not override it, rather, they took the clear path by explicitly abrogating cuм ex:

Notwithstanding any whatsoever Apostolic Constitutions and Orders to the contrary issued by
Our Predecessor Roman Pontiffs, which, to the extent it is necessary, We declare each and every
one to be abrogated, as above, and even other matters worthy of individual and special mention
and derogation.

The next paragraph condemns the resurrection of all previous laws:

Therefore, let it be permitted to no man to weaken this page of Our constitution, ordinance,
abrogation, commandment, binding order, warning, prohibition, precept, and will, or to go
against it by a rash undertaking. Moreover, if any one presumes to attempt this, let him know that
he will incur for it the anger of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.


I used to have a link to Pope St. Pius X's law, Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, wherein, if I remember correctly, it explicitly mentioned the abrogation of Pope Paul IV's cuм Ex by name. The above quotes are from Pope Pius XII's Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 27, 2019, 07:09:17 AM

Quote
St Pius X11 might have changed the ecclesiastic laws but they can't change divine laws...no?
What divine Law are you referring to?  If Fr Cekada, the biggest sede out there, says that cuм Ex is null, then that’s a big admission on his part. 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: sedevacantist3 on February 27, 2019, 08:01:03 PM
So if the Bull was replaced by the 1917 canon law where exactly is it stated that now there’s a contrary law as if a heretic can be pope.

I.       The Text of Canon 188.4
A. Translation and Latin Text:
“Through tacit resignation, accepted by the law itself, all offices become vacant ipso facto and without any declaration if a cleric: ...n.4. Has publicly forsaken the Catholic Faith.”
(Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione, si clericus: ...4 A fide catholica publice defecerit.)
B. Paraphrase:
No one, unless he profess the Catholic Faith, can hold any office — that is, lay valid claim to authority in the Catholic Church. For the faithful to know this fact and refuse obedience, no formality is required: neither sentence passed by a court nor any other official pronouncement, nor a formally expressed resignation accepted by some official. Defection itself from the Catholic Faith constitutes resignation.


I.       The Text of Canon 188.4

A. Translation and Latin Text:
“Through tacit resignation, accepted by the law itself, all offices become vacant ipso facto and without any declaration if a cleric: ...n.4. Has publicly forsaken the Catholic Faith.”
(Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione, si clericus: ...4 A fide catholica publice defecerit.)
B. Paraphrase:
No one, unless he profess the Catholic Faith, can hold any office — that is, lay valid claim to authority in the Catholic Church. For the faithful to know this fact and refuse obedience, no formality is required: neither sentence passed by a court nor any other official pronouncement, nor a formally expressed resignation accepted by some official. Defection itself from the Catholic Faith constitutes resignation.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 27, 2019, 08:26:50 PM
Don’t make it more complicated than it is- 1945 Law supersedes 1917 Canon Law.  
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: sedevacantist3 on February 27, 2019, 09:14:54 PM
Pope Pius XII, Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, Dec. 8, 1945: "34. None of the cardinals may in any way, or by pretext of any excommunication, suspension, or interdict whatsoever, or of any other ecclesiastical impediment, be excluded in the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff. We hereby suspend such censures solely for the purposes of the said election; at other times they are to remain in vigor (AAS 38 [1946], p. 76)."

It’s a dogma that 1) heretics are not members of the Church; and 2) that a pope is the head of the Church. It is a dogmatic fact, therefore, that a heretic cannot be the head of the Church, since he is not a member of it.
What, then, does Pope Pius XII mean in Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis? First off, one needs to understand that excommunication can be incurred for many things. Historically, excommunications were distinguished by the terms major and minor. Major excommunications were incurred for heresy and schism (sins against the faith) and certain other major sins. Those who received major excommunication for heresy were not members of the Church (as we have just proven at length). Minor excommunication, however, did not remove one from the Church, but forbade one to participate in the Church's sacramental life. Pope Benedict XIV made note of the distinction.
Pope Benedict XIV, Ex Quo Primum (# 23), March 1, 1756:
"Moreover heretics and schismatics are subject to the censure of major excommunication by the law of Can. de Ligu. 23, quest. 5, and Can. Nulli, 5, dist. 19."57
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 27, 2019, 09:47:27 PM
Quote
It’a a dogma that 1) heretics are not members of the Church;
A pope can only be declared a heretic by the Cardinals at a Church council, per St Bellarmine.  Such has not yet happened.  Therefore, his material/govt office is still occupied.  
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: sedevacantist3 on February 27, 2019, 10:17:37 PM
A pope can only be declared a heretic by the Cardinals at a Church council, per St Bellarmine.  Such has not yet happened.  Therefore, his material/govt office is still occupied.  
But the original Bull makes no mention of a church council needed. So if you say the 1917 code overides the Bull, show me where it contradicts the Bull, i don’t see it. And you can’t prove Pope Pius xII goes against the Bull. The Bull clearly supports the sede position but you are grasping at straws to diwnplay it in my humble opinion
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: trad123 on February 27, 2019, 10:32:12 PM
A pope can only be declared a heretic by the Cardinals at a Church council, per St Bellarmine.

Cite this, please.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 27, 2019, 11:21:45 PM
Fr Cekada clearly says, and the law (Pope St Puis X’s law) clearly states, that cuм Ex is null.  This is not opinion, but fact.  I’m not going to prove the obvious.  Add to this, that Pope Pius XII re-declared the same law as St Pius X.  

Prove to all of us your case.  Church law is clearly against you. 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on February 27, 2019, 11:51:17 PM
Fr Cekada clearly says, and the law (Pope St Puis X’s law) clearly states, that cuм Ex is null.  This is not opinion, but fact.  I’m not going to prove the obvious.  Add to this, that Pope Pius XII re-declared the same law as St Pius X.  

Prove to all of us your case.  Church law is clearly against you.
I will wait for your citation of Bellarmine stating a council is needed ...
I am granting that cuм Ex (which clearly supports the sedevacantist position)  is null   (debatable) by the 1917 code which states...The Text of Canon 188.4
A. Translation and Latin Text:
“Through tacit resignation, accepted by the law itself, all offices become vacant ipso facto and without any declaration if a cleric: ...n.4. Has publicly forsaken the Catholic Faith.”
(Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione, si clericus: ...4 A fide catholica publice defecerit.)


Notice that the 1917 Code doesn’t say anything about a declaration being necessary; it says just the opposite – “without any declaration”

Then with St Pius XII the Dimonds give a nice explanation


First off, one needs to understand that excommunication can be incurred for many things. Historically, excommunications were distinguished by the terms major and minor. Major excommunications were incurred for heresy and schism (sins against the faith) and certain other major sins. Those who received major excommunication for heresy were not members of the Church (as we have just proven at length). Minor excommunication, however, did not remove one from the Church, but forbade one to participate in the Church's sacramental life. Pope Benedict XIV made note of the distinction. Pope Benedict XIV, Ex Quo Primum (# 23), March 1, 1756: "Moreover heretics and schismatics are subject to the censure of major excommunication by the law of Can. de Ligu. 23, quest. 5, and Can. Nulli, 5, dist. 19."57Minor excommunication, on the other hand, was incurred for things such as violating a secret of the Holy Office, falsifying relics (c. 2326), violating a cloister (c. 2342), etc. These are all ecclesiastical or Church penalties. Such actions, though gravely sinful, did not separate a person from the Church. And though the terms major and minor excommunication are no longer used, it remains a fact that a person could incur an excommunication (for something other than heresy) which would not separate him from the Church, and he could incur an excommunication for heresy which would separate him from the Church. Therefore, a cardinal who receives an excommunication for heresy is no longer a cardinalbecause heretics are outside the Catholic Church (de fide, Pope Eugene IV). But a cardinal who receives an excommunication for something else is still a cardinal, though in a state of grave sin. 
So when Pope Pius XII says that all cardinals, whatever ecclesiastical impediment they are under, can vote and be elected in a Papal conclave, this presupposes cardinals who have received an excommunication for something other than heresy, since a cardinal who has received an excommunication for heresy is not a cardinal at all. The key point to understand is that heresy is not merely an ecclesiastical impediment – thus it is not what Pius XII is talking about – but an impediment by divine law. The canonist Maroto explains: “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the divine law itself, because, although by divine law they are not considered incapable of participating in certain types of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, nevertheless, they must certainly be regarded as excluded from occupying the throne of the Apostolic See...”58Notice, heretics are not excluded from the Papacy by merely ecclesiastical impediments, but impediments flowing from the divine law. Pius XII’s legislation doesn’t apply to heresy because he was speaking about ecclesiastical impediments: “...or any other ecclesiastical impediment...”. Thus, his legislation does not show that heretics can be elected and remain popes, which is why he didn’t mention heretics. Pope Pius XII was referring to Catholic cardinals who may have been under excommunication. To further prove the point, let’s assume for the sake of argument that Pope Pius XII’s legislation did mean that a heretical cardinal could be elected pope. Notice what Pius XII says: “We hereby suspend such censures solely for the purposes of the said election; at other times they are to remain in vigor.”Pius XII says that the excommunication is suspended only for the time of the election; at other times it remains in vigor. This would mean that the excommunication for heresy would fall back into force immediately after the election and then the heretic who had been elected pope would lose his office! Thus, no matter what way you look at it, a heretic could not be validly elected and remain pope. St. Antoninus (1459): "In the case in which the pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off. A pope who would be separated from the Church by heresy, therefore, would by that very fact itself cease to be head of the Church. He could not be a heretic and remain pope, because, since he is outside of the Church, he cannot possess the keys of the Church." (Summa Theologica, cited in Actes de Vatican I. V. Frond pub.) If a heretic (one who denies the faith) could be the head inside the Church, then the dogma that the Church is one in faith (as in one, holy, Catholic and apostolic) would be false.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: trad123 on February 28, 2019, 12:21:01 AM
Fr Cekada clearly says, and the law (Pope St Puis X’s law) clearly states, that cuм Ex is null.  This is not opinion, but fact. (. . .)

When did he state that?

https://youtu.be/1c_JL8_Wa-k?t=687

Starting at 11:27 the papal bull is mentioned. This was back in 2015.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: trad123 on February 28, 2019, 12:42:07 AM
Thread: cuм Ex Apostolatus

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wUVC6FOv_1MJ:strobertbellarmine.net/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D2%26t%3D17+&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b-1-d

2006
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: trad123 on February 28, 2019, 12:52:29 AM
In any case, "cuм Ex" is null and the most recent law on the books is Pius XII's.

34. No Cardinal, by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, in-terdict or other ecclesiastical impediment whatsoever can be excluded in any way from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff. Moreover, we suspend such censures for the effect only of this election, even though they shall remain otherwise in force.” (Cons. “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis,” 8 December 1945)

http://www.fathercekada.com/2007/06/25/can-an-excommunicated-cardinal-be-elected-pope/

Quote
IV. SUMMARY: APPLES AND ORANGES
 ————————————————————————

 Paragraph 34 of Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis suspends the effects of censures (excommunication, suspension, interdict) and other ecclesiastical impediments (e.g., infamy of law) for cardinals who are electing a pope and for the cardinal they finally elect. Thus, a cardinal who had incurred an excommunication prior to his election as pope would nevertheless be validly elected.
This law concerns only impediments of ecclesiastical law, however. As such, it cannot be invoked as an argument against sedevacantism, which is based on the teaching of pre-Vatican II canonists that heresy is an impediment of divine law to receiving the papacy.

Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: trad123 on February 28, 2019, 01:47:44 AM
https://www.cathinfo.com/men-only/fr-chazal-and-sedeprivationism-andor-the-pope-still-holds-his-material-office/msg584093/#msg584093

Quote
Potatoe, potato.  It depends how you define 'catholic'.  If we're talking about excommunication and heresy from a CANON LAW perspective, then such people are still catholics, legally speaking.  They are still baptized and still have the capability to repent, confess and save their souls.

If we're talking about MORALS, then yes, it is correct to say that a heretic is no longer catholic, in the sense that they have rejected part of the faith.  So, we do not call them catholic, who do not believe the full faith.

I'm talking about the CANON LAW, legal definition because this is the topic at hand - the legal status of the pope/bishops who incur 'ipso facto' excommunication (which is a canon law punishment).  Legally speaking, these people are still catholic, even though morally they are not.  The point is that, an excommunicated person is not 'outside of the church' legally speaking.  They can still hold govt offices, though have no spiritual authority.  This is why Fr Chazal's argument is valid, in my opinion.

DIVINE LAW


http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12mysti.htm

Quote
23.

For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13satis.htm

Quote
15.

. . . it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.

http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=15&catname=10

Quote
Heresy is both a crime (delictum) against canon law and a sin (peccatum)  against  divine  law.  The  material  Mr.  Sparks  quotes deals  with  heresy  as  a  delictum  and  with  the ecclesiastical  censure (excommunication) that the heretic incurs.

This  is  mostly  irrelevant  to  the  case  of  a  heretical  pope.  Because  he  is  the  supreme  legislator  and  therefore  not  subject  to canon  law,  a  pope  cannot  commit  a  true delictum  of  heresy  or incur an excommunication. He is subject only to the divine law.

It is by violating the divine law through the sin (peccatum) of heresy  that  a  heretical  pope  loses  his  authority  —  “having  become an unbeliever [factus infidelis],” as Cardinal Billot
says, “he would by his own will be cast outside the body of the Church.” (De Ecclesia, 5th ed. [1927] 632.)

The canonist Coronata explains:

“If indeed such a situation would happen, he [the Roman Pontiff]  would,  by  divine  law,  fall  from  office  without  any  sentence,  indeed,  without  even  a  declaratory  one.” (Institutiones Iuris Canonici [1950] 1:316. My emphasis.)

So, all the  canonical requirements governing  the  delictum of heresy  need  not  be  fulfilled for  a  heretical  pope  to  lose  his  authority — his public sin against divine law (infidelity) suffices.

Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 28, 2019, 06:39:23 AM
Quote
I will wait for your citation of Bellarmine stating a council is needed.
+Bellarmine mentioned a council or a group of Cardinals, acting in an official capacity of the Church.  The "dubia letter" would be an example.  ...I'm not going to go dig up the quote; don't have time.  Even if I did, it's not like +Bellarmine's opinion is dogma and has to be followed, so it's irrelevant, really.  The over-arching point is that "the pope is judged by no one" so who could declare a pope a FORMAL heretic?  Only the Church.  Not you, or me or anyone else.

Quote
“Through tacit resignation, accepted by the law itself, all offices become vacant ipso facto and without any declaration if a cleric: ...n.4. Has publicly forsaken the Catholic Faith.”
You are falsely interpreting "forsaken" to mean someone who is infected with error.  Forsaken means to abandon the Faith or to renounce it.  Someone can be a heretic and not be a FORMAL heretic (pernicious) and also think that they are orthodox, which means they have not renounced the Faith. 
It is not for the laity or a non-rome official to interpret/apply canon law.  Canon law applies to "canons", i.e. church officials, who are the only ones able to enforce the law.

The Diamonds are assuming that the heresy in question is pernicious.  Pernicious heresy can only be determined if the accused is corrected and given the opportunity to recant (see Bellarmine and also St Pauls' rebuke of St Peter.).  The "dubia letter" is an attempt to do so.  In the case of a heretic pope, if a public accusal of his errors is not required, then St Peter lost his office automatically and the papacy failed before 100AD.  Since no one can judge the pope, and since you're arguing that the pope loses his office "ipso facto" for a private heresy, then the papacy could fail and be vacant without anyone knowing it.  This makes no sense.

All of your quotes about heresy are talking about pernicious/formal heresy, which requires a process to determine the accused's stubborness in error.  No one loses their office for private heresy.

Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 28, 2019, 07:59:29 AM
Canon 1325 (1917 CIC) gives the classic definition of the word “heretic”, taken from St Thomas.  ...Perniciousness/obstinacy is required...
“a baptised person who, while continuing to call himself a Christian, pertinaciously denies or doubts a truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith.”


John of St. Thomas: It cannot be held that the pope, by the very fact of being a heretic, would cease to be pope antecedently [prior] to a declaration of the Church.  It is true that some seem to hold this position [I’ll comment on this below]; but we will discuss this in the next article.  What is truly a matter of debate, is whether the pope, after he is declared by the Church to be a heretic, is deposed ipso facto by Christ the Lord, or if the Church ought to depose him.  In any case, as long as the Church has not issued a juridical declaration, he must always be considered the pope, as we will make more clear in the next article.”


Francisco Suarez: “Therefore, others [e.g., Azorius] affirm the Church is superior to the Pope in the case of heresy, but this is difficult to say. For Christ the Lord constituted the Pope as supreme judge absolutely; even the canons indifferently and generally affirm this; and at length the Church does not validly exercise any act of jurisdiction against the Pope; nor is the power conferred to him by election, rather [the Church] merely designates a person upon whom Christ confers the power by himself. Therefore on deposing a heretical Pope, the Church would not act as superior to him, but juridically and by the consent of Christ she would declare him a heretic and therefore unworthy of Pontifical honors; he would then ipso facto and immediately be deposed by Christ…”


Suarez: f the external but occult heretic can still remain the true Pope, with equal right he can continue to be so in the event that the offense became known, as long as sentence were not passed on him.  (…) because in this way would arise even greater evils. In effect, there would arise doubt about the degree of infamy necessary for him to lose his charge; there would rise schisms because of this, and everything would become uncertain…”.

http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/the-following-is-taken-from-recente.html (http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/the-following-is-taken-from-recente.html)


Here is what I was referring to about +Bellarmine's view of a Church declaration/process/rebuke.
Bellarmine: “The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom the manifestly heretical Pope is not “ipso facto” deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority, and from reason, that the manifest heretic is “ipso facto” deposed. The argument from authority is based on Saint Paul, who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate – which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence”. (14)

(14) - De Romano Pontifice, Bk. 2


---

Look, Sedevacantists make a lot of good points and have good research.  I just think they take all these principles of excommunication/canon law and take it one step too far.  Everyone agrees that a heretic pope (even if private/occult or a non-manifest, as-yet-unwarned-by-the-Church, pope) is in spiritual jeopardy and in grave mortal sin (among other spiritual penalties).  So, his spiritual office is impaired in the sense that he does not have the state of grace and the Holy Ghost to guide him.  But we can't take the next step and say that the seat is vacant, if only for practical purposes.  As Suarez states, without a Church process of some kind, a bad pope would raise doubts, cause schism and the unity of the Church would be in jeopardy because of uncertainty.  This would be MORE devastating to the Church than the error(s) that the pope believes.  The Church is a government and there must be a process to remove a bad pope, else chaos would reign.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on February 28, 2019, 05:43:15 PM
I'm confused
how exactly does this support your position


Bellarmine: “The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom the manifestly heretical Pope is not “ipso facto” deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority, and from reason, that the manifest heretic is “ipso facto” deposed. The argument from authority is based on Saint Paul, who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate – which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence”.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 28, 2019, 07:38:52 PM
When most of the theologians discuss a heretic pope, they view the process of removing him in 2 steps.  1) church officials give him official notice of his errors (2 rebukes) and then declare him a heretic, if he remains obstinate. 

2) After declaring him a heretic, he is removed from office. 

I’d say that the vast majority of Theologians agree that Step 1 has to happen.  What they debate is Step 2.  Some say that A) after the pope is declared a heretic, he loses office immediately (ipso facto).  Others argue that B) Church officials need to take another official step to remove him.  

+Bellarmine is saying that Cajetan is wrong for believing in Step 2B, and +Bellarmine says the heretic pope need not be deposed for it happens automatically (Step 2A). 

The problem with sedevacantists is that they totally skip Step 1 and proceed to Step 2A.  Almost all major theologians would consider this a big error, which is why the Cardinals gave +Francis the “Dubia letter”, in order to start the process of rebuke.  Anyone who reads +Bellarmine and others objectively would come to the same conclusion.  A person is not (arguably) ipso facto removed until they are rebuked publically and then declared a heretic.  Without this process, there would be chaos which is what modern sedevacantism is. 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on February 28, 2019, 07:55:59 PM
When most of the theologians discuss a heretic pope, they view the process of removing him in 2 steps.  1) church officials give him official notice of his errors (2 rebukes) and then declare him a heretic, if he remains obstinate.

2) After declaring him a heretic, he is removed from office.

I’d say that the vast majority of Theologians agree that Step 1 has to happen.  What they debate is Step 2.  Some say that A) after the pope is declared a heretic, he loses office immediately (ipso facto).  Others argue that B) Church officials need to take another official step to remove him.  

+Bellarmine is saying that Cajetan is wrong for believing in Step 2B, and +Bellarmine says the heretic pope need not be deposed for it happens automatically (Step 2A).

The problem with sedevacantists is that they totally skip Step 1 and proceed to Step 2A.  Almost all major theologians would consider this a big error, which is why the Cardinals gave +Francis the “Dubia letter”, in order to start the process of rebuke.  Anyone who reads +Bellarmine and others objectively would come to the same conclusion.  A person is not (arguably) ipso facto removed until they are rebuked publically and then declared a heretic.  Without this process, there would be chaos which is what modern sedevacantism is. ..
whose way does the bull of 1559 agree with? your interpretation or the sede's,... be honest
“Those so promoted or elected, by that very fact and without the need to make any further declaration, shall be deprived of any dignity, position, honor, title, authority, office and power.”
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 28, 2019, 08:58:19 PM
Implicit in cuм Ex is the assumption that a heretic has been declared as such by Church officials, or the heretic has been declared in schism or has admitted to some error.  NO ONE, ESPECIALLY THE POPE, CAN BE JUDGED A HERETIC (or guilty of error) EXCEPT BY THE CHURCH.  cuм Ex is saying that if someone has been deemed in error then they can’t be elected.  

But FIRST, the Church has to make a decision.  Step 1 can’t be skipped.  Sedes make themselves judge of orthodoxy which they have no authority to do, legally.  Any Catholic can judge actions as heretical and avoid the error; but only the Church can determine pernicity/obstinacy which happens through a process.  
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on February 28, 2019, 09:32:53 PM
Implicit in cuм Ex is the assumption that a heretic has been declared as such by Church officials, or the heretic has been declared in schism or has admitted to some error.  NO ONE, ESPECIALLY THE POPE, CAN BE JUDGED A HERETIC (or guilty of error) EXCEPT BY THE CHURCH.  cuм Ex is saying that if someone has been deemed in error then they can’t be elected.  

But FIRST, the Church has to make a decision.  Step 1 can’t be skipped.  Sedes make themselves judge of orthodoxy which they have no authority to do, legally.  Any Catholic can judge actions as heretical and avoid the error; but only the Church can determine pernicity/obstinacy which happens through a process.  
from Fr Cekada

The maxim “the First See is judged by no one” is incorpo-rated into the Code of Canon Law as canon 1556.The canon appears in Book IV (Ecclesiastical Trials), Part I (Trials), Section 1 (Trials in General), Title 1 (The Competent Fo-rum), which prescribes which ecclesiastical courts have jurisdic-tion to try which types of cases.While it is true that the pope has the final say on doctrinal and disciplinary matters in the Church..except in the system Mr. Ferrara and SSPX propose, where theydo the maxim itself merely means that there is no ecclesiastical tribunal before which one could summon the pope or to which one could appeal the pope’s final judicial decision.Here is an explanation from a standard canon law manual:“Immunity of the Roman Pontiff. ‘The First See is judged by no one.’ (Canon 1556). This concerns the Apostolic See or the Roman Pontiff who by the divine law itself enjoys full and ab-solute immunity.” (Cappello, Summa Juris Canonici3:19.)The judicial immunity of the pope was disputed in church history by partisans of Gallicanism and Conciliarism, who also maintained that a pope’s decisions could be appealed to a gen-eral council.The maxim “the First See is judged by no one” is a proceduralnorm, then.(B) Sources: One of the canonical sources for the maxim, the Decreeof Gratian (ca. 1150), reads as follows:“Whose sins [the pope’s] no mortal man presumes to rebuke, for he shall judge all and is to be judged by no one, unless he is suddenly caught deviating from the faith [nisi deprehendatur a fide devius].” (Decree, I, dist. 60, ch. 6.)If anything, one can conclude from this the very oppositeof what Mr. Ferrara maintains: defection from the faith is the one sin of a pope we are permittedto judge.Papal Teaching:In two of his coronation sermons, Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) considered one of the greatest canon-
6ists of his time explained how a pope who falls into the sin of heresy is “judged.”“’Without faith it is impossible to please God.’... And so the faith of the Apostolic See never failed, even in the most trying circuмstances [turbatione], but always continued intact and undiminished, so that the privilege of Peter remained constant and unshaken.“To this end faith is so necessary for me that, though I have for other sins God alone as my judge, it is alone for a sin commit-ted against faith that I may be judged by the Church. [propter solum peccatum quod in fide commititur possem ab Ecclesia judicari.] For ‘he who does not believe is already judged’.”(Sermo 2: In Con-secratione, PL 218:656)You are the salt of the earth... Still less can the Roman Pon-tiff boast, for he can be judged by men or rather he can be shown to be judged, if he manifestly ‘loses his savor’ in heresy. [quia potest ab hominibus judicari, vel potius judicatus ostendi, sividelicet evanescit in haeresim.] For he who does not believe is already judged.” (Sermo 4: In Consecratione, PL 218:670)A pope who commits the sin of heresy, then, can indeed be “shown to be judged
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 28, 2019, 09:50:32 PM
I said the pope can be judged only by Church officials.  Your quote is irrelevant. 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: roscoe on February 28, 2019, 10:48:21 PM
the opposite is actually true-- Church officials can only be held to account by Il Papa Infallibility. See Cuthbert-Butler History Vatican Council. :fryingpan:
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 28, 2019, 11:04:40 PM
Who decides if a pope is obstinate/pernicious in holding his errors?  Without proving obstinacy there is no manifest heresy.  Without manifest heresy, there’s no ecclesiastical penalties.  

All major theologians say that the Church must investigate/decide manifest heresy.  This is also scriptural as St Paul teaches. 

Sedes determine, of their own private reason, without investigation, without process, that person x is obstinate.  This is chaos and there’s no basis for it anywhere in Church history. 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on February 28, 2019, 11:32:42 PM
Who decides if a pope is obstinate/pernicious in holding his errors?  Without proving obstinacy there is no manifest heresy.  Without manifest heresy, there’s no ecclesiastical penalties.  

All major theologians say that the Church must investigate/decide manifest heresy.  This is also scriptural as St Paul teaches.

Sedes determine, of their own private reason, without investigation, without process, that person x is obstinate.  This is chaos and there’s no basis for it anywhere in Church history.
you believe in this:
Canon 194.1-3, 1983 Code of Canon Law: “One is removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself: ... 2- who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church... The removal from office referred to in nn. 2 and 3 can be enforced only if it is established by the declaration of a competent authority.

I believe in this:

Canon 188.4, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “There are certain causes which effect the tacit (silent) resignation of an office, which resignation is accepted in advance by operation of the law, and hence is effective without any declaration. These causes are... (4) if he has publicly fallen away from the faith.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 28, 2019, 11:57:33 PM
Who decides if he has “publically fallen away”?  The Church.  Not you.

You privately interpret this to mean you are allowed to judge the interior motives of another (even the pope!).  The purpose of the rebuke process is to determine if the person is obstinate in his error.  Just because a person repeats an error does not mean they are obstinate.  Without obstinacy, there is no heresy.  Without obstinacy, there is no abandonment of the Faith.  Your impulsive and impatient rush to judgement is 1) without authority, 2) without jurisdiction, 3) without agreement of any major theologian.  
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Mithrandylan on March 01, 2019, 11:44:01 AM
Yes, cuм Ex is "off the books."  So is every law that predates the 1917 CIC is no longer in effect, except to the degree that the current law incorporates them (C. 6 §6).

But that isn't the same thing as saying "heretics can be popes now."  Keep in mind what ecclesiastical legislation is.  It's the Church's attempt to order the lives of her members according to divine law.  She does this in a great many ways.  Think of just one example: laws of fasting and abstinence.  These change, to be sure.  However, it is a non-sequitur to observe a change in fasting and abstinence laws and to conclude from such a change that the Church no longer regards fasting or abstinence as efficacious forms of penance or mortificaiton.  It is not within the power of the Church to change divine or natural law.  The non-eligibility of non-members to hold office in the Church is not a mere ecclesiastical law; in fact, cuм ex itself was always redundant in a certain sense, since the divine law (as Bellarmine tells us) has always been regarded by the fathers as precluding heretics from having jurisdiction.  cuм ex didn't "change" anything; it merely used positive law to re-iterate divine law.  By way of analogy, the Church could make a law that says in order for Protestants to begin receiving Holy Communion, they must first make a general confession and, unless there is danger of death, a public abjuration of error.  Does this mean that if this law was abrogated, Protestants could now, without being reincorporated into the Church, receive Holy Communion?  Of course not.  

Remember that the Church's laws (considered in their positive aspect) are tied to time and space.  They legislate problems in the here and now.  That's why we see laws going "off the books."  They don't go off the books because the Church changes her teachings or beliefs, they go off the books because it is in the interest of governmental expedience to have as organized and easy to communicate and enforce law as possible.  That's why we have canon law in the first place!  The previous corpus was unorganized, confusing, and even the best canonists were not sure which laws were and were not in force, or which laws superseded other laws.  So we might see the Church in the twelfth century erect a law controlling how many horses a bishop can travel with, so to help avoid against scandals of avarice.  Such a law is simply not needed when horse travel is no longer en vogue.  Ditto all positive laws.  A law may be abrogated simply because it is no longer (regarded) as being expedient to the governance of the Church.

But to the degree that any law simply repeats the divine law, even if the law is abrogated the divine law prescripts remain.  Since it is of divine law that heretics cannot hold office, since it is of divine law that those outside the Church cannot receive Holy Communion, since it is of divine law that fasting and abstinence are efficacious, these all remain true whether or not they are incorporated into the Church's positive ecclesiastical legislation.  

And even if we look at the current ecclesiastical law, we find canon 188 §4, which teaches that any many who defects from the Church resigns his office.  This is not a penal canon, it is in the section of the code about offices.  And the canon footnotes cuм Ex.  This doesn't mean cuм ex is "on the books," what it means is that the Church still, even with her positive law, incorporates divine law's incompatibility between heretics and offices.  But even if she didn't, it wouldn't mean that heretics can now hold office.  Nothing can make that happen.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 01, 2019, 12:03:31 PM
Quote
And even if we look at the current ecclesiastical law, we find canon 188 §4, which teaches that any many who defects from the Church resigns his office.
Sedevacantists falsely believe that any catholic can judge the private intentions of another, determine perniciousness/obstinacy in error, determine defection from the Church, determine the falling away from the Faith.  There is NO law in Church history which supports this mindset.  As I quoted earlier, even +Bellarmine says that the Church must decide the heretical status of the pope first, then (for example), Divine Law and/or cuм Ex or any other number of laws would kick-in and the pope's office would be declared void.

All sedes skip Step 1 - determination of heresy.  They assume anyone can judge another of heresy.  This is their main flaw.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Mithrandylan on March 01, 2019, 12:09:09 PM
Sedevacantists falsely believe that any catholic can judge the private intentions of another, determine perniciousness/obstinacy in error, determine defection from the Church, determine the falling away from the Faith.  There is NO law in Church history which supports this mindset.  As I quoted earlier, even +Bellarmine says that the Church must decide the heretical status of the pope first, then (for example), Divine Law and/or cuм Ex or any other number of laws would kick-in and the pope's office would be declared void.

All sedes skip Step 1 - determination of heresy.  They assume anyone can judge another of heresy.  This is their main flaw.
.
So you agree that heretics cannot hold office. 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 01, 2019, 12:20:33 PM
Of course they can’t.  The question is, as many many theologians have debated - who judges that the pope is a heretic? The Church alone has this power, not anyone else.  Until the Church declares the pope a manifest heretic, after publically rebuking him twice (per Scripture), he holds his office because his obstinacy has not been determined, thus per canon law, he’s not a heretic, strictly speaking.  
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Mithrandylan on March 01, 2019, 12:27:06 PM
Of course they can’t.  The question is, as many many theologians have debated - who judges that the pope is a heretic? The Church alone has this power, not anyone else.  Until the Church declares the pope a manifest heretic, after publically rebuking him twice (per Scrupture), he holds his office.  
.
As Pope Innocent III said, heretic popes are already judged by God.  So either heretic popes aren't really popes and heretics can't hold office, or they can.  You say on the one hand "of course they can't" but then on the other hand they can and do hold office until the Church declares them heretical.  These are mutually exclusive, unless you meant something other than what you said.
.
I would suggest distinguishing between theological debates that center (essentially) around the question of what to do next when there is a heretic pope, and a theological debate over whether or not a heretic pope actually is pope.  There's a debate about the former, but there's really no debate about the latter.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 01, 2019, 12:39:35 PM
Your problem is you don't distinguish between a heretical statement, belief, or idea vs obstinate, manifest heresy.  As I quoted earlier, canon law defines heresy (based on St Thomas' definition) as a PERNICIOUS/OBSTINATE holding to error.

Pope A says, writes or infers error or a heretical statement.  This does not make him a heretic.  He is ONLY a heretic if, after being corrected/rebuked, he continues in error.  This is Step 1.
Pope B says, writes or infers error or a heretical statement.  He is corrected and he admits his error.  He isn't a heretic.
Pope C says, writes or infers error or a heretical statement.  The Church does not correct him, so how do we know if he is obstinate or just confused on a particular point?  We don't.  It is up to the Church to label one a heretic and determine obstinancy.

You cannot skip Step 1 and assume obstinacy.  This is a Church matter/decision.  
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Mithrandylan on March 01, 2019, 12:46:25 PM
Your problem is you don't distinguish between a heretical statement, belief, or idea vs obstinate, manifest heresy.  As I quoted earlier, canon law defines heresy (based on St Thomas' definition) as a PERNICIOUS/OBSTINATE holding to error.
.
I'm perfectly capable of doing this and you have no evidence that I fail to so distinguish.  While we're diagnosing people's problems, I think yours is that your fists are perpetually swinging so you have to constantly erect enemies in order to have something to hit.  This-- in case you couldn't tell-- is antithetical to discussion.  So... see you later.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Stubborn on March 01, 2019, 12:53:02 PM
.
As Pope Innocent III said, heretic popes are already judged by God. 
The why not let God depose heretic popes?

Aside from that, Pope Innocent III and all the popes and cardinals since Pope Innocent II have all lost their offices  (https://www.johnthebaptist.us/jbw_english/docuмents/articles/rjmi/tr37_no_popes_cardinals_since_1130.pdf)due to heresy per Richard Ibranyi - who is himself a screaming example of the reason why the status of popes are not and must never be our concern in the slightest.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 01, 2019, 01:55:46 PM
Quote
I'm perfectly capable of doing this and you have no evidence that I fail to so distinguish.
I'm sorry if I offended you.  Not my intention.

Quote
You say on the one hand "of course heretics can't hold office" but then on the other hand they can and do hold office until the Church declares them heretical.  These are mutually exclusive, unless you meant something other than what you said.
They are not mutually exclusive ideas.  The Church moves slowly on many matters, including disciplinary ones.  For example, Martin Luther nailed his 99 Thesis docuмent on Oct 31, 1517.  He wasn't excommunicated until January 1521...3 years later.  The current sede mindset would be to say that Martin Luther was excommunicated the instant he wrote/nailed his Thesis to the door, but this is not how things work.  He was not proven obstinante, he was not labeled a heretic until 3 YEARS LATER, AFTER the Church process, where he was questioned and rebuked.

In the same way, any pope who says/writes heresy must be rebuked first, before his obstinancy is proven.  This is Step 1.  Until it is proven, he continues to hold office.  Once obstinante/manifest heresy is proven, THEN it is debatable among theologians on what happens next, 2A) automatic loss of office or 2B) a secondary Church declaration on loss of office.  2A and 2B are debated (i.e. +Bellarmine vs Cajetan) but almost all theologians agree that Step 1 must happen first.  Obstinancy hasn't been proven for any of the post-V2 popes, though the "dubia" letter is a start...
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on March 01, 2019, 08:48:41 PM
Implicit in cuм Ex is the assumption that a heretic has been declared as such by Church officials, or the heretic has been declared in schism or has admitted to some error.  NO ONE, ESPECIALLY THE POPE, CAN BE JUDGED A HERETIC (or guilty of error) EXCEPT BY THE CHURCH.  cuм Ex is saying that if someone has been deemed in error then they can’t be elected.  

But FIRST, the Church has to make a decision.  Step 1 can’t be skipped.  Sedes make themselves judge of orthodoxy which they have no authority to do, legally.  Any Catholic can judge actions as heretical and avoid the error; but only the Church can determine pernicity/obstinacy which happens through a process.  
you haven't proven  without a doubt this point
"Implicit in cuм Ex is the assumption that a heretic has been declared as such by Church officials,"
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 01, 2019, 09:25:54 PM
cuм Ex was in 1559.  St Robert Bellarmine died in 1621 so all his writings on a theoretical heretic pope would’ve been based partially on cuм Ex.  St Robert says the Church would have to declare a pope a heretic before he would lose his office.  Case closed.  

What’s the alternative?  Please provide a source that says a layman or a priest can label a pope as a heretic based on their private judgement.  
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: roscoe on March 01, 2019, 10:48:54 PM
The  Election of Pope Gregory XVII in 1958 makes this discussion irrelevant.  Whatever the extent of their heresies, not one of the v2 anti-popes can claim the Chair of St Peter because they have Not been legally elected... :fryingpan:
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on March 02, 2019, 01:56:49 PM
cuм Ex was in 1559.  St Robert Bellarmine died in 1621 so all his writings on a theoretical heretic pope would’ve been based partially on cuм Ex.  St Robert says the Church would have to declare a pope a heretic before he would lose his office.  Case closed.  

What’s the alternative?  Please provide a source that says a layman or a priest can label a pope as a heretic based on their private judgement.  
obviously your case closed statement is worthless, can we agree on the following...
1.'pope " francis" doesn't profess the catholic faith
2. he is not a catholic
3. we know he's an heretic but because we are just layman we have no authority to label him as such
do we agree on these statements?
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: phagocytosis on March 02, 2019, 04:30:09 PM
Yes, both St Pius X and Pius XII made exceptions for the ecclesiastical penalties (any and all penalties, including excommunication for heresy) whereby, the penalties are not in force ONLY for the conclave.  Once a pope is elected and the conclave is finished, all penalities go back in force.  Meaning, that a heretic could elect AND be elected as pope, but once the election is over, that pope is SPIRITUALLY impaired because of the SPIRITUAL penalities in force, even if they still hold the GOVT/material office.  This is what I believe we are living through.

Sounds like sedeprivationism.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 03, 2019, 06:29:38 PM

Quote
can we agree on the following?
1.'pope " francis" doesn't profess the catholic faith
2. he is not a catholic
3. we know he's an heretic but because we are just layman we have no authority to label him as such.
1.  +Francis doesn’t profess lots of the Faith.  I can’t say all.
2.  I can’t say he’s not Catholic because that is a judgment of his interior disposition.  I can say he does not act like a catholic many times. 
3.  Probable that he’s obstinate (which would make him a heretic) but, agree, not for me to say because I don’t have the authority or tools to find out for sure. 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 03, 2019, 06:30:41 PM
Quote
Sounds like sedeprivationism.
Agree.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 03, 2019, 06:37:23 PM
Quote
The  Election of Pope Gregory XVII in 1958 makes this discussion irrelevant. 
I agree it’s probable but it’s very unprovable and we must make decisions of Faith based on facts.  Even if it were true, Siri died before +Benedict was elected so that means +Benedict was a valid pope?  Obviously, I say yes, based on Pius XIIs Law, though I qualify and say that he’s a pope in material respects only.  His spiritual office is, arguably, under ecclesiastical penalty.  
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on March 04, 2019, 05:34:12 PM
1.  +Francis doesn’t profess lots of the Faith.  I can’t say all.
2.  I can’t say he’s not Catholic because that is a judgment of his interior disposition.  I can say he does not act like a catholic many times.
3.  Probable that he’s obstinate (which would make him a heretic) but, agree, not for me to say because I don’t have the authority or tools to find out for sure.
1.If he rejects any part of the catholic faith he rejects all, isn't this the teaching of the church?
2. no it's judging his public disposition
3.since we don't have the authority, who does today in this present crisis? for example if Francis states publicly hail Satan , would you
keep to your same position?
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 04, 2019, 07:00:07 PM
1. Define “reject”.  Again, this requires probable obstinacy.  One man’s rejection is another man’s momentary weakness.  

2.  Ok, I would say that publically, he doesn’t act like a catholic.  But what does my (or anyone else’s) opinion matter?  Judging the Catholicity and membership in the Church is done BY THE CHURCH.  It's not put up for a vote.  It’s why jurisdiction exists because the Church is a monarchy.  

3.  The Church hierarchy alone could, in theory, remove a bad pope.  No other credible theologian has suggested any other alternative.  God put us in this mess and He’ll sort it out. 

I agree with most sede arguments I just disagree with the conclusion of many sede priests, who say the seat is vacant, because the pope is a heretic, no ifs ands or buts.  This is what I call dogmatic sedevacantism and I reject it wholeheartedly.  There’s no basis for it anywhere in Church history. The Church isn’t a democracy and we aren’t Protestants who can “protest” or reject a bad pope without the Church giving us the ok first.  
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: ByzCat3000 on March 13, 2019, 02:55:43 PM
The why not let God depose heretic popes?

Aside from that, Pope Innocent III and all the popes and cardinals since Pope Innocent II have all lost their offices  (https://www.johnthebaptist.us/jbw_english/docuмents/articles/rjmi/tr37_no_popes_cardinals_since_1130.pdf)due to heresy per Richard Ibranyi - who is himself a screaming example of the reason why the status of popes are not and must never be our concern in the slightest.
OK, I'm not a Sedevacantist (I'm also, to be clear, new to the faith, and not presuming to teach anyone, nor do I have a definitive position beyond "I definitely have concerns about Vatican II").  

But I don't see how R + R over Sedevacantism fixes the particular problem of guys like Richard Ibryani.  Couldn't an R + R theoretically go nuts in a similar way?  "Well, I think all these guys were Popes, I just think every council since Lateran I was a pastoral council on some ridiculous technicality, and I also think since the popes of the last thousand years were flirting with the edges of heresy, we're certainly obligated to ignore anything they say that isn't infallible, which is also everything 'cause Vatican I itself was only pastoral and full of errors" or something.  Admittedly, I have this same beef with Sedevacantists that accuse R + R types of "sifting the magisterium of the guys they consider to be the true popes and only accepting what they think is in conformity to Tradition."  I mean, the Sedes do that too, they sift their magisterium, decide they don't think it lines up, and thus they decide they don't think those guys are popes at all.  What's the difference?

Honestly, the more pertinent thing to me with guys like RI is, while its somewhere on the outer skirts of my plausibility structure that the Church might be left with no *Pope* for a really long time, I can't see any way how you can have no faithful bishops without the gates of Hell prevailing.  I mean at that point you're at Protestant level "well, there are some people, somewhere, keeping the true faith" level territory, at which point a visible ecclesiology becomes kinda meaningless.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 13, 2019, 03:22:35 PM
Quote
Admittedly, I have this same beef with Sedevacantists that accuse R + R types of "sifting the magisterium of the guys they consider to be the true popes and only accepting what they think is in conformity to Tradition."  I mean, the Sedes do that too, they sift their magisterium, decide they don't think it lines up, and thus they decide they don't think those guys are popes at all.  What's the difference?
Agree, both sides are not foolproof in their logic.

Quote
Honestly, the more pertinent thing to me with guys like RI is, while its somewhere on the outer skirts of my plausibility structure that the Church might be left with no *Pope* for a really long time, I can't see any way how you can have no faithful bishops without the gates of Hell prevailing.  I mean at that point you're at Protestant level "well, there are some people, somewhere, keeping the true faith" level territory, at which point a visible ecclesiology becomes kinda meaningless.
During the Arian heresy (300s-400s) Catholic historians say most Catholics were infected with error to some degree (just like now), save St Athanasius (1 bishop) and a few laity, so it's happened before in Church history.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: ByzCat3000 on March 13, 2019, 03:58:53 PM
I admit I’m kinda going off what I found convincing enough to get me to leave Protestantism in the first place, but one bishop and some laity I could definitely believe, especially for a short time (decades, not centuries)

If I believed the Catholic Church could get to the point that RI describes I’d just be a Protestant because I don’t really see much difference at that point 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Conspiracy_Factist on March 13, 2019, 05:29:59 PM
1. Define “reject”.  Again, this requires probable obstinacy.  One man’s rejection is another man’s momentary weakness.  

2.  Ok, I would say that publically, he doesn’t act like a catholic.  But what does my (or anyone else’s) opinion matter?  Judging the Catholicity and membership in the Church is done BY THE CHURCH.  It's not put up for a vote.  It’s why jurisdiction exists because the Church is a monarchy.  

3.  The Church hierarchy alone could, in theory, remove a bad pope.  No other credible theologian has suggested any other alternative.  God put us in this mess and He’ll sort it out.

I agree with most sede arguments I just disagree with the conclusion of many sede priests, who say the seat is vacant, because the pope is a heretic, no ifs ands or buts.  This is what I call dogmatic sedevacantism and I reject it wholeheartedly.  There’s no basis for it anywhere in Church history. The Church isn’t a democracy and we aren’t Protestants who can “protest” or reject a bad pope without the Church giving us the ok first.  
when you say this
3.  The Church hierarchy alone could, in theory, remove a bad pope.  No other credible theologian has suggested any other alternative.  God put us in this mess and He’ll sort it out.
you are in fact stating that if jew mason Christ hating Borgolio were to pronounce hail satan you would keep with your opinion that he is still a true pope
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: roscoe on March 13, 2019, 08:33:35 PM
I agree it’s probable but it’s very unprovable and we must make decisions of Faith based on facts.  Even if it were true, Siri died before +Benedict was elected so that means +Benedict was a valid pope?  Obviously, I say yes, based on Pius XIIs Law, though I qualify and say that he’s a pope in material respects only.  His spiritual office is, arguably, under ecclesiastical penalty.  
I don't agree that it is 'very unprovable'. 5 mins of white smoke, the Vatican Radio & choosing the name of Pope Gregory add up pretty well to moi. Then we have the known endorsement of Pius XII even though that is not actual evidence of election. :cheers:
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Stubborn on March 14, 2019, 04:49:29 AM
OK, I'm not a Sedevacantist (I'm also, to be clear, new to the faith, and not presuming to teach anyone, nor do I have a definitive position beyond "I definitely have concerns about Vatican II").  
The point is, as Catholics, deciding the status of the pope is not our business, yet some sedes wrongfully believe we are bound in conscience to make that decision.

Our main religious obligation is to save our own soul first and those in our care second - deciding the popes' status often leads to an act of iniquity and as such, is an activity which is entirely contrary to our religious obligation and should be altogether avoided, particularly by people like yourself who are new to the faith.

For my part, I strongly recommend that you, you personally, avoid all conversation that has anything to do with the status of the pope(s), rather devote your time and effort to avoiding sin and growing in the faith to save your soul....seek, search and knock, as we all must do.

To help you understand a little better about V2 in a nutshell, read the OP here. (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/the-second-vatican-council/)  



Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 14, 2019, 10:19:19 AM
Quote
I don't agree that it is 'very unprovable'. 5 mins of white smoke, the Vatican Radio & choosing the name of Pope Gregory add up pretty well to moi. Then we have the known endorsement of Pius XII even though that is not actual evidence of election.
That's all circuмstantial evidence which does not prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.  And I'd argue that to say that "pope x is not pope" would require more than reasonable doubt, it would require CERTAINTY, which can only be provided by an authority, such as the Church hierarchy.  You believe the Siri thesis because you want to, not because the facts are overwhelming.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 14, 2019, 10:27:07 AM
Quote
you are in fact stating that if jew mason Christ hating Borgolio were to pronounce hail satan you would keep with your opinion that he is still a true pope
There are 2 parts to the papacy - the material/govt office and the spiritual office.  Even if a pope were to lose his spiritual office due to heresy, he would still hold the material office until removed by the Church (assuming that's possible, because it's never happened before).  Based on the changes that Pope St Pius X and Pius XII made to the conclave rules, they envisioned a situation where a heretic/excommunicated pope could hold the material/govt office while being under spiritual penalty or privately excommunicated.  So, in a sense, yes, a heretic could still hold the office of the pope, even though they would not be a "true" spiritual pope becauase they are not orthodox.

It's a complex question with many different layers. 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: sedevacantist3 on March 14, 2019, 02:08:23 PM
There are 2 parts to the papacy - the material/govt office and the spiritual office.  Even if a pope were to lose his spiritual office due to heresy, he would still hold the material office until removed by the Church (assuming that's possible, because it's never happened before).  Based on the changes that Pope St Pius X and Pius XII made to the conclave rules, they envisioned a situation where a heretic/excommunicated pope could hold the material/govt office while being under spiritual penalty or privately excommunicated.  So, in a sense, yes, a heretic could still hold the office of the pope, even though they would not be a "true" spiritual pope becauase they are not orthodox.

It's a complex question with many different layers.
So you are saying spiritually the see is vacant?
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 14, 2019, 02:55:19 PM
Quote
So you are saying spiritually the see is vacant?
No, it's not vacant, it's just impaired.  The papacy is both material and spiritual, just like a person is both body and soul.  Just as a person in mortal sin is spiritually dead, even though their body still lives, so a bad pope's spiritual office is impaired and ecclesiastically penalized, even though their material/govt office remains in effect.

Until the Church hierarchy determines, though the scripturally-based rebuke process, that a pope is an obstinate/manifest heretic, then their material office is still held and (at least visibly) they are still the pope.

Practically speaking, a bad pope is the same as no pope, because a bad pope offers no help to us in saving our souls and does not protect the Truth (and may even contribute to error) but he's still a visible sign of Church unity, which many people need (from a human standpoint).  This is why Pope St Pius X and Pius XII changed the rules imo.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: DecemRationis on March 14, 2019, 06:43:21 PM
Sedevacantists falsely believe that any catholic can judge the private intentions of another, determine perniciousness/obstinacy in error, determine defection from the Church, determine the falling away from the Faith.  There is NO law in Church history which supports this mindset.  As I quoted earlier, even +Bellarmine says that the Church must decide the heretical status of the pope first, then (for example), Divine Law and/or cuм Ex or any other number of laws would kick-in and the pope's office would be declared void.

All sedes skip Step 1 - determination of heresy.  They assume anyone can judge another of heresy.  This is their main flaw.
Pax,

You need to substitute "the pope" for "another" where indicated above. Even then, your position is subject to dispute, a rather open question, as to which your brother Sedevacantists are entitled to their very Catholic opinion.

As it stands, the breadth of your claim - i.e., in essence one cannot judge another of heresy - exceeds the bounds. We must judge, as indicated in a verse where "any one" is appropriately used:

Quote
Galatians 1:9
[9] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=55&ch=1&l=9-#x) As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
Sicut praediximus, et nunc iterum dico : si quis vobis evangelizaverit praeter id quod accepistis, anathema sit.


"Any one" is at the opposite pole from your position, which sounds like not judging anyone for, well, heresy, or a false gospel.
I leave you with this thought from John Daly's book Michael Davies, An Evaluation:

Quote
"Under a subtitle “Judgements of the simple human reason, duly enlightened”, Fr. Felix Sarda y Salvany, on p. 201 of the French edition of his Le Libéralisme est un Péché, a work approved by the Holy See, remarks:

'Yes, reader, reason is itself, as the theologians would say, a theological source (‘locus theologicus’) ... Reason must be subordinate to ... faith in all respects, but it is false to allege that reason is impotent on its own. It is therefore permitted, and even obligatory, for the layman to rationalize his faith, to infer its consequences, to apply it and to deduce parallels and analogies from it. The simple layman can distrust, at first sight, a novel doctrine presented to him insofar as he sees it to be in conflict with another, defined doctrine. If this conflict is clear, he can fight it as evil, and denounce as evil any book which supports it ... The faithful layman can do all that and has always done so, to the Church’s applause. This is not making himself the shepherd of the flock, nor even its humble servant ... What would be the use of the rule of faith and morals if the simple layman were unable to make immediate application of it himself in any particular case? ... The general rule of faith, which is the infallible authority of the Church, agrees – and must agree – that everyone apply it in the concrete by his particular judgment.' "

(Footnote 20, Pages 85-86)
 

Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 14, 2019, 06:57:53 PM
Quote
You need to substitute "the pope" for "another" where indicated above. Even then, your position is subject to dispute, a rather open question, as to which your brother Sedevacantists are entitled to their very Catholic opinion.

As it stands, the breadth of your claim - i.e., in essence one cannot judge another of heresy - exceeds the bounds. We must judge, as indicated in a verse where "any one" is appropriately used:
Absolutely disagree with your interpretation and so would St Robert and many other theologians.  The pope is not just "another" man - he is head of the Church.  Canon Law says no one judges the Holy See, so you can't lump him in with any normal catholic.  Secondly, St Paul says that the one who preaches heresy is to be judged anathema.  Of course, he is correct, but you must understand this judgement on 2 levels.

1) we judge error as error, from any man - pope or laity.  We judge that it is prudent to stay away from this error and the person who spews it.  However this is a judgment of ACT, not a judgement of their interior disposition or their obstinancy.

2) the judgement of the erroneous person's obstinancy and the determination of their holding to error can only be done by a competant authority.  Anyone other than the pope can be judged by the Church, per canon law.  But who judges the pope?  No man is above the pope, so theologians have argued about this question for centuries.  Most say the Church, in a council or by a committee of Cardinals could judge the pope guilty of heresy...and only after 2 rebukes, per St Paul's instructions.

St Paul says that a heretic should be anathematized.  He also says that 2 rebukes are necessary to determine obstinant heresy.  Does he contradict himself?  Of course not.  There is one set of rules for the pope and another set of rules for every other Catholic.  The pope is not just "another" catholic.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: forlorn on March 16, 2019, 10:31:29 AM
Yes, both St Pius X and Pius XII made exceptions for the ecclesiastical penalties (any and all penalties, including excommunication for heresy) whereby, the penalties are not in force ONLY for the conclave.  Once a pope is elected and the conclave is finished, all penalities go back in force.  Meaning, that a heretic could elect AND be elected as pope, but once the election is over, that pope is SPIRITUALLY impaired because of the SPIRITUAL penalities in force, even if they still hold the GOVT/material office.  This is what I believe we are living through.
You're contradicting yourself. In this post and others you give a Sedeprivationist view, saying that the heretic Pope is implicitly impaired. But then later on you said that the Popes abrogated cuм Ex SO THAT a heretic could be validly elected Pope, to make sure the Papal See remained occupied. Why would they arrange it so that the Papal See would be occupied by someone who would then by spiritually impaired from their papal duties? 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: ByzCat3000 on March 16, 2019, 05:26:00 PM
I mean, assuming the world *isn't* about to end, that would make sense on the simple ground of "how else would you ever get a Pope?"  The only answer that I've seen that actually makes sense aside from "The world's gonna end so we don't need to" would be Sedeprivationism in that case. 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: forlorn on March 16, 2019, 07:10:35 PM
I mean, assuming the world *isn't* about to end, that would make sense on the simple ground of "how else would you ever get a Pope?"  The only answer that I've seen that actually makes sense aside from "The world's gonna end so we don't need to" would be Sedeprivationism in that case.
I think anyone who recognises the Crisis in the Church believes the world's about to end. Even Novus Ordites should, because even they can Great Apostasy in how millions of people are abandoning the New Church too. 
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: ByzCat3000 on March 16, 2019, 07:24:03 PM
I guess we'll see. I mean, I suppose its certainly possible, but its not certain.  And if it doesn't happen, eventually Sedevacantists need to answer the "how to get a pope" question.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 18, 2019, 10:30:00 AM
Quote
You're contradicting yourself. In this post and others you give a Sedeprivationist view, saying that the heretic Pope is implicitly impaired. But then later on you said that the Popes abrogated cuм Ex SO THAT a heretic could be validly elected Pope, to make sure the Papal See remained occupied.
It's not a contradiction, if you distinguish between the material/govt and spiritual office.

Quote
Why would they arrange it so that the Papal See would be occupied by someone who would then by spiritually impaired from their papal duties? 
I can't answer for them, but I have some guesses:

1.  The material/govt office is important because it is the VISIBLE sign of a papacy, which is a visible sign of authority and unity of Catholics.  To many catholics, especially in these times of crisis, having a leader (even if it's a bad leader) is important to their human psyche and morale.  It helps to keep unity and order.

2.  If the material/govt office remains occupied, then also the Church's govt continues to operate, which means dioceses, parishes and schools keep operating and bishops who die are replaced with new bishops, etc.  Also, the jurisdiction of the Church continues, in a temporal sense.

The material/govt office is very important, just not as important as the spiritual.  By changing church conclave law to allow a potential heretic to be elected, you keep the Church operating and you keep up appearances, you "keep the lights on".  Once God intervenes to have mercy on the world by ending this crisis and blessing us with the resurrection of His Church, and a return to orthodoxy, then the new hierarchy can hit the ground running and "clean house" very quickly.  Odds are, if an orthodox pope were elected, there would be a good % of novus ordo bishops/priests who would convert also (and some of the Cardinals and hierarchy too).

If the conclave laws weren't changed and we abided by a strict interpretation of cuм Ex, then basically, there's no hierarchy and 95% of bishops/priests have lost their office.  There would be an end to any continuity of the Church govt.  Any future orthodox pope would have to "start from scratch" in the sense that most dioceses would be without any authority, structure or governance.  It would be the wild west for a few years (at least) until the Church could fill all the open positions and teach/educate these new bishops/priests how to operate a diocese. 

I think the decision to allow a spiritually impaired pope to exist is a practical step which is prudent in the times we live, since both Pope St Pius X and Pius XII saw the growing Modernism and envisioned a future where Modernism would corrupt almost everyone (and they were correct).  Practically speaking, a bad pope is the same as no pope, because the spirtual guidance and leadership does not exist in either case, but on a temporal level, there are some benefits to having a visible leader continue the human operations of the Church.
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Your Friend Colin on April 23, 2019, 07:52:42 PM
Pax, you stated:


Quote
Also, the jurisdiction of the Church continues, in a temporal sense.
Does this mean that disciplinary laws are valid and legitimate from a Pontiff who materially holds the office? (JPII, Francis, etc.)
Title: Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 23, 2019, 10:46:24 PM
That’s the way I see it, but it’s just my opinion.  If the pope holds the material office, he can still appoint bishops and change the human aspects of Church law, since this is part of the governing papal powers.