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Author Topic: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4  (Read 4457 times)

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Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2019, 07:55:59 PM »
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  • When most of the theologians discuss a heretic pope, they view the process of removing him in 2 steps.  1) church officials give him official notice of his errors (2 rebukes) and then declare him a heretic, if he remains obstinate.

    2) After declaring him a heretic, he is removed from office.

    I’d say that the vast majority of Theologians agree that Step 1 has to happen.  What they debate is Step 2.  Some say that A) after the pope is declared a heretic, he loses office immediately (ipso facto).  Others argue that B) Church officials need to take another official step to remove him.  

    +Bellarmine is saying that Cajetan is wrong for believing in Step 2B, and +Bellarmine says the heretic pope need not be deposed for it happens automatically (Step 2A).

    The problem with sedevacantists is that they totally skip Step 1 and proceed to Step 2A.  Almost all major theologians would consider this a big error, which is why the Cardinals gave +Francis the “Dubia letter”, in order to start the process of rebuke.  Anyone who reads +Bellarmine and others objectively would come to the same conclusion.  A person is not (arguably) ipso facto removed until they are rebuked publically and then declared a heretic.  Without this process, there would be chaos which is what modern sedevacantism is. ..
    whose way does the bull of 1559 agree with? your interpretation or the sede's,... be honest
    “Those so promoted or elected, by that very fact and without the need to make any further declaration, shall be deprived of any dignity, position, honor, title, authority, office and power.”


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #31 on: February 28, 2019, 08:58:19 PM »
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  • Implicit in cuм Ex is the assumption that a heretic has been declared as such by Church officials, or the heretic has been declared in schism or has admitted to some error.  NO ONE, ESPECIALLY THE POPE, CAN BE JUDGED A HERETIC (or guilty of error) EXCEPT BY THE CHURCH.  cuм Ex is saying that if someone has been deemed in error then they can’t be elected.  

    But FIRST, the Church has to make a decision.  Step 1 can’t be skipped.  Sedes make themselves judge of orthodoxy which they have no authority to do, legally.  Any Catholic can judge actions as heretical and avoid the error; but only the Church can determine pernicity/obstinacy which happens through a process.  


    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #32 on: February 28, 2019, 09:32:53 PM »
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  • Implicit in cuм Ex is the assumption that a heretic has been declared as such by Church officials, or the heretic has been declared in schism or has admitted to some error.  NO ONE, ESPECIALLY THE POPE, CAN BE JUDGED A HERETIC (or guilty of error) EXCEPT BY THE CHURCH.  cuм Ex is saying that if someone has been deemed in error then they can’t be elected.  

    But FIRST, the Church has to make a decision.  Step 1 can’t be skipped.  Sedes make themselves judge of orthodoxy which they have no authority to do, legally.  Any Catholic can judge actions as heretical and avoid the error; but only the Church can determine pernicity/obstinacy which happens through a process.  
    from Fr Cekada

    The maxim “the First See is judged by no one” is incorpo-rated into the Code of Canon Law as canon 1556.The canon appears in Book IV (Ecclesiastical Trials), Part I (Trials), Section 1 (Trials in General), Title 1 (The Competent Fo-rum), which prescribes which ecclesiastical courts have jurisdic-tion to try which types of cases.While it is true that the pope has the final say on doctrinal and disciplinary matters in the Church..except in the system Mr. Ferrara and SSPX propose, where theydo the maxim itself merely means that there is no ecclesiastical tribunal before which one could summon the pope or to which one could appeal the pope’s final judicial decision.Here is an explanation from a standard canon law manual:“Immunity of the Roman Pontiff. ‘The First See is judged by no one.’ (Canon 1556). This concerns the Apostolic See or the Roman Pontiff who by the divine law itself enjoys full and ab-solute immunity.” (Cappello, Summa Juris Canonici3:19.)The judicial immunity of the pope was disputed in church history by partisans of Gallicanism and Conciliarism, who also maintained that a pope’s decisions could be appealed to a gen-eral council.The maxim “the First See is judged by no one” is a proceduralnorm, then.(B) Sources: One of the canonical sources for the maxim, the Decreeof Gratian (ca. 1150), reads as follows:“Whose sins [the pope’s] no mortal man presumes to rebuke, for he shall judge all and is to be judged by no one, unless he is suddenly caught deviating from the faith [nisi deprehendatur a fide devius].” (Decree, I, dist. 60, ch. 6.)If anything, one can conclude from this the very oppositeof what Mr. Ferrara maintains: defection from the faith is the one sin of a pope we are permittedto judge.Papal Teaching:In two of his coronation sermons, Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) considered one of the greatest canon-
    6ists of his time explained how a pope who falls into the sin of heresy is “judged.”“’Without faith it is impossible to please God.’... And so the faith of the Apostolic See never failed, even in the most trying circuмstances [turbatione], but always continued intact and undiminished, so that the privilege of Peter remained constant and unshaken.“To this end faith is so necessary for me that, though I have for other sins God alone as my judge, it is alone for a sin commit-ted against faith that I may be judged by the Church. [propter solum peccatum quod in fide commititur possem ab Ecclesia judicari.] For ‘he who does not believe is already judged’.”(Sermo 2: In Con-secratione, PL 218:656)You are the salt of the earth... Still less can the Roman Pon-tiff boast, for he can be judged by men or rather he can be shown to be judged, if he manifestly ‘loses his savor’ in heresy. [quia potest ab hominibus judicari, vel potius judicatus ostendi, sividelicet evanescit in haeresim.] For he who does not believe is already judged.” (Sermo 4: In Consecratione, PL 218:670)A pope who commits the sin of heresy, then, can indeed be “shown to be judged

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #33 on: February 28, 2019, 09:50:32 PM »
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  • I said the pope can be judged only by Church officials.  Your quote is irrelevant. 

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #34 on: February 28, 2019, 10:48:21 PM »
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  • the opposite is actually true-- Church officials can only be held to account by Il Papa Infallibility. See Cuthbert-Butler History Vatican Council. :fryingpan:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #35 on: February 28, 2019, 11:04:40 PM »
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  • Who decides if a pope is obstinate/pernicious in holding his errors?  Without proving obstinacy there is no manifest heresy.  Without manifest heresy, there’s no ecclesiastical penalties.  

    All major theologians say that the Church must investigate/decide manifest heresy.  This is also scriptural as St Paul teaches. 

    Sedes determine, of their own private reason, without investigation, without process, that person x is obstinate.  This is chaos and there’s no basis for it anywhere in Church history. 

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #36 on: February 28, 2019, 11:32:42 PM »
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  • Who decides if a pope is obstinate/pernicious in holding his errors?  Without proving obstinacy there is no manifest heresy.  Without manifest heresy, there’s no ecclesiastical penalties.  

    All major theologians say that the Church must investigate/decide manifest heresy.  This is also scriptural as St Paul teaches.

    Sedes determine, of their own private reason, without investigation, without process, that person x is obstinate.  This is chaos and there’s no basis for it anywhere in Church history.
    you believe in this:
    Canon 194.1-3, 1983 Code of Canon Law: “One is removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself: ... 2- who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church... The removal from office referred to in nn. 2 and 3 can be enforced only if it is established by the declaration of a competent authority.

    I believe in this:

    Canon 188.4, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “There are certain causes which effect the tacit (silent) resignation of an office, which resignation is accepted in advance by operation of the law, and hence is effective without any declaration. These causes are... (4) if he has publicly fallen away from the faith.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #37 on: February 28, 2019, 11:57:33 PM »
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  • Who decides if he has “publically fallen away”?  The Church.  Not you.

    You privately interpret this to mean you are allowed to judge the interior motives of another (even the pope!).  The purpose of the rebuke process is to determine if the person is obstinate in his error.  Just because a person repeats an error does not mean they are obstinate.  Without obstinacy, there is no heresy.  Without obstinacy, there is no abandonment of the Faith.  Your impulsive and impatient rush to judgement is 1) without authority, 2) without jurisdiction, 3) without agreement of any major theologian.  


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #38 on: March 01, 2019, 11:44:01 AM »
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  • Yes, cuм Ex is "off the books."  So is every law that predates the 1917 CIC is no longer in effect, except to the degree that the current law incorporates them (C. 6 §6).

    But that isn't the same thing as saying "heretics can be popes now."  Keep in mind what ecclesiastical legislation is.  It's the Church's attempt to order the lives of her members according to divine law.  She does this in a great many ways.  Think of just one example: laws of fasting and abstinence.  These change, to be sure.  However, it is a non-sequitur to observe a change in fasting and abstinence laws and to conclude from such a change that the Church no longer regards fasting or abstinence as efficacious forms of penance or mortificaiton.  It is not within the power of the Church to change divine or natural law.  The non-eligibility of non-members to hold office in the Church is not a mere ecclesiastical law; in fact, cuм ex itself was always redundant in a certain sense, since the divine law (as Bellarmine tells us) has always been regarded by the fathers as precluding heretics from having jurisdiction.  cuм ex didn't "change" anything; it merely used positive law to re-iterate divine law.  By way of analogy, the Church could make a law that says in order for Protestants to begin receiving Holy Communion, they must first make a general confession and, unless there is danger of death, a public abjuration of error.  Does this mean that if this law was abrogated, Protestants could now, without being reincorporated into the Church, receive Holy Communion?  Of course not.  

    Remember that the Church's laws (considered in their positive aspect) are tied to time and space.  They legislate problems in the here and now.  That's why we see laws going "off the books."  They don't go off the books because the Church changes her teachings or beliefs, they go off the books because it is in the interest of governmental expedience to have as organized and easy to communicate and enforce law as possible.  That's why we have canon law in the first place!  The previous corpus was unorganized, confusing, and even the best canonists were not sure which laws were and were not in force, or which laws superseded other laws.  So we might see the Church in the twelfth century erect a law controlling how many horses a bishop can travel with, so to help avoid against scandals of avarice.  Such a law is simply not needed when horse travel is no longer en vogue.  Ditto all positive laws.  A law may be abrogated simply because it is no longer (regarded) as being expedient to the governance of the Church.

    But to the degree that any law simply repeats the divine law, even if the law is abrogated the divine law prescripts remain.  Since it is of divine law that heretics cannot hold office, since it is of divine law that those outside the Church cannot receive Holy Communion, since it is of divine law that fasting and abstinence are efficacious, these all remain true whether or not they are incorporated into the Church's positive ecclesiastical legislation.  

    And even if we look at the current ecclesiastical law, we find canon 188 §4, which teaches that any many who defects from the Church resigns his office.  This is not a penal canon, it is in the section of the code about offices.  And the canon footnotes cuм Ex.  This doesn't mean cuм ex is "on the books," what it means is that the Church still, even with her positive law, incorporates divine law's incompatibility between heretics and offices.  But even if she didn't, it wouldn't mean that heretics can now hold office.  Nothing can make that happen.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #39 on: March 01, 2019, 12:03:31 PM »
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  • Quote
    And even if we look at the current ecclesiastical law, we find canon 188 §4, which teaches that any many who defects from the Church resigns his office.
    Sedevacantists falsely believe that any catholic can judge the private intentions of another, determine perniciousness/obstinacy in error, determine defection from the Church, determine the falling away from the Faith.  There is NO law in Church history which supports this mindset.  As I quoted earlier, even +Bellarmine says that the Church must decide the heretical status of the pope first, then (for example), Divine Law and/or cuм Ex or any other number of laws would kick-in and the pope's office would be declared void.

    All sedes skip Step 1 - determination of heresy.  They assume anyone can judge another of heresy.  This is their main flaw.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #40 on: March 01, 2019, 12:09:09 PM »
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  • Sedevacantists falsely believe that any catholic can judge the private intentions of another, determine perniciousness/obstinacy in error, determine defection from the Church, determine the falling away from the Faith.  There is NO law in Church history which supports this mindset.  As I quoted earlier, even +Bellarmine says that the Church must decide the heretical status of the pope first, then (for example), Divine Law and/or cuм Ex or any other number of laws would kick-in and the pope's office would be declared void.

    All sedes skip Step 1 - determination of heresy.  They assume anyone can judge another of heresy.  This is their main flaw.
    .
    So you agree that heretics cannot hold office. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #41 on: March 01, 2019, 12:20:33 PM »
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  • Of course they can’t.  The question is, as many many theologians have debated - who judges that the pope is a heretic? The Church alone has this power, not anyone else.  Until the Church declares the pope a manifest heretic, after publically rebuking him twice (per Scripture), he holds his office because his obstinacy has not been determined, thus per canon law, he’s not a heretic, strictly speaking.  

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #42 on: March 01, 2019, 12:27:06 PM »
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  • Of course they can’t.  The question is, as many many theologians have debated - who judges that the pope is a heretic? The Church alone has this power, not anyone else.  Until the Church declares the pope a manifest heretic, after publically rebuking him twice (per Scrupture), he holds his office.  
    .
    As Pope Innocent III said, heretic popes are already judged by God.  So either heretic popes aren't really popes and heretics can't hold office, or they can.  You say on the one hand "of course they can't" but then on the other hand they can and do hold office until the Church declares them heretical.  These are mutually exclusive, unless you meant something other than what you said.
    .
    I would suggest distinguishing between theological debates that center (essentially) around the question of what to do next when there is a heretic pope, and a theological debate over whether or not a heretic pope actually is pope.  There's a debate about the former, but there's really no debate about the latter.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #43 on: March 01, 2019, 12:39:35 PM »
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  • Your problem is you don't distinguish between a heretical statement, belief, or idea vs obstinate, manifest heresy.  As I quoted earlier, canon law defines heresy (based on St Thomas' definition) as a PERNICIOUS/OBSTINATE holding to error.

    Pope A says, writes or infers error or a heretical statement.  This does not make him a heretic.  He is ONLY a heretic if, after being corrected/rebuked, he continues in error.  This is Step 1.
    Pope B says, writes or infers error or a heretical statement.  He is corrected and he admits his error.  He isn't a heretic.
    Pope C says, writes or infers error or a heretical statement.  The Church does not correct him, so how do we know if he is obstinate or just confused on a particular point?  We don't.  It is up to the Church to label one a heretic and determine obstinancy.

    You cannot skip Step 1 and assume obstinacy.  This is a Church matter/decision.  

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Does 1917 canon law abolish Papal Bull Pope Paul 4
    « Reply #44 on: March 01, 2019, 12:46:25 PM »
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  • Your problem is you don't distinguish between a heretical statement, belief, or idea vs obstinate, manifest heresy.  As I quoted earlier, canon law defines heresy (based on St Thomas' definition) as a PERNICIOUS/OBSTINATE holding to error.
    .
    I'm perfectly capable of doing this and you have no evidence that I fail to so distinguish.  While we're diagnosing people's problems, I think yours is that your fists are perpetually swinging so you have to constantly erect enemies in order to have something to hit.  This-- in case you couldn't tell-- is antithetical to discussion.  So... see you later.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).