Author Topic: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?  (Read 5961 times)

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Offline XavierSem

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Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
« on: April 12, 2021, 08:19:33 AM »
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  • Simple Question. Discussion Later.

    The CE says that indeed they are.

    But only in declaring the Saint is in Heaven.

    Interesting. We'll look at the Theologians later.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #1 on: April 12, 2021, 08:26:31 AM »
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  • There are multiple, very long threads on this already.  Respond to those, if you have something new to add.  We don't need you to re-hash old info.  This isn't your blog.


    Offline XavierSem

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #2 on: April 12, 2021, 09:12:26 AM »
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  • There are multiple threads on multiple subjects. Since they are old threads, new ones are generally started at a later time. Same here.

    Here's the CE: "What is the object of this infallible judgment of the pope? Does he define that the person canonized is in heaven or only that he has practiced Christian virtues in an heroic degree? I have never seen this question discussed; my own opinion is that nothing else is defined than that the person canonized is in heaven. The formula used in the act of canonization has nothing more than this:
    Quote
    "In honour of . . . we decree and define that Blessed N. is a Saint, and we inscribe his name in the catalogue of saints, and order that his memory by devoutly and piously celebrated yearly on the . . . day of . . . his feast."
    (Ad honorem . . . beatum N. Sanctum esse decernimus et definimus ac sanctorum catalogo adscribimus statuentes ab ecclesiâ universali illius memoriam quolibet anno, die ejus natali . . . piâ devotione recoli debere.)
    There is no question of heroic virtue in this formula; on the other hand, sanctity does not necessarily imply the exercise of heroic virtue, since one who had not hitherto practised heroic virtue would, by the one transient heroic act in which he yielded up his life for Christ, have justly deserved to be considered a saint. This view seems all the more certain if we reflect that all the arguments of theologians for papal infallibility in the canonization of saints are based on the fact that on such occasions the popes believe and assert that the decision which they publish is infallible (Pesch, Prael. Dogm., I, 552)." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm
    Make this Life Offering to the Twin Hearts of Jesus and Mary today! Don't delay! You can Save Souls!

    (1) All your family members will be saved (2) Your loved ones in Purgatory will be released, and (3) you yourself will not need Purgatory if you make it.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #3 on: April 12, 2021, 09:26:49 AM »
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  • I have serious reservations regarding the infallibility of today’s canonizations.

    Most of my reasons are found in this Remnant article by Salza:

    https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/4289-are-pope-francis-canonizations-infallible
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #4 on: April 12, 2021, 10:22:25 AM »
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  • Yes, I believe that canonizations are infallible AT LEAST in terms of certainly establishing the presence of a soul in heaven, and also most likely in determining that a soul had heroic virtue worthy of emulation.  I mean, it's possible that Adolf Hitler or Joe Stalin converted on their death beds, spent 50 years of intense Purgatory, and are now in heaven, but it would still be offensive and contrary to the Holy Spirit's protection of the Church were the Church to have canonized either one of them.


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #5 on: April 12, 2021, 10:47:01 AM »
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  • I mean, it's possible that Adolf Hitler or Joe Stalin converted on their death beds, spent 50 years of intense Purgatory, and are now in heaven, but it would still be offensive and contrary to the Holy Spirit's protection of the Church were the Church to have canonized either one of them.
    Canonizing Hitler would be far less troublesome than the canonization of Paul VI. Stalin and Mao as well. Pretty much everyone but Judas who might be next.
    I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #6 on: April 12, 2021, 10:57:34 AM »
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  • Yes, I believe that canonizations are infallible AT LEAST in terms of certainly establishing the presence of a soul in heaven, and also most likely in determining that a soul had heroic virtue worthy of emulation.  
    The fact is that before the Vatican II popes, every Catholic on the street never questioned the infallibility that a saint was in Heaven for their heroic virtue and that they were examples in every way. So, let's not fool ourselves with playing slow pitch softball with the Vatican II religion. The worst enemies of Catholics are bad priests because they are well disguised, they are wolves dressed in sheep's clothing. The closer a false religion is to Catholicism (Eastern Orthodox, High Anglican, Lutherans, Calvinists), the more dangerous that is because it is better camouflaged, disguised. In Vatican II you have a false religion disguised as Catholicism and bad priest leading the people to perdition.

    One has to disregard all of history to believe that  J23, P6, JPII and Judas are saints or in even in Purgatory.

    St. John Chrysostom, sometime Patriarch of Constantinople:

    I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think, I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties therein.

    Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail”. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles)
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #7 on: April 12, 2021, 03:10:24 PM »
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  • Simple Question. Discussion Later.

    Whenever Xavier posts this in his OP, it never ends well.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #8 on: April 12, 2021, 03:11:23 PM »
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  • Canonizing Hitler would be far less troublesome than the canonization of Paul VI. Stalin and Mao as well. Pretty much everyone but Judas who might be next.

    Indeed, no single man besides Martin Luther cost more souls than did Paul VI.  Heck, Judas in his own twisted and perverted way actually HELPED save souls by putting into motion the events of Our Redemption.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #9 on: April 12, 2021, 03:37:26 PM »
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  • I do, and I find the arguments about the changes to the process complete uncompelling because of how there was no process for the vast majority of Church history.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #10 on: April 12, 2021, 04:39:57 PM »
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  • I do, and I find the arguments about the changes to the process complete uncompelling because of how there was no process for the vast majority of Church history.

    Aside from this statement being factually erroneous (ie., the process was in place since the 9th century, which means it was in place for the majority of Church history), the primary argument against infallibility is that all those who opined in favor of it did so prior to Vatican I’s criteria were defined:

    If it ain’t part of revelation, it can’t be the subject of infallibility.

    But could you please refute the Salza article?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #11 on: April 12, 2021, 05:16:09 PM »
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  • Aside from this statement being factually erroneous (ie., the process was in place since the 9th century, which means it was in place for the majority of Church history), the primary argument against infallibility is that all those who opined in favor of it did so prior to Vatican I’s criteria were defined:

    If it ain’t part of revelation, it can’t be the subject of infallibility.

    But could you please refute the Salza article?

    I like the ring of that, but what's your authoritative source?

    If the pope and the bishops - the teaching office of the Church, the Magisterium - teach something as revealed, then it's ipso facto part of revelation  . . . so goes one school of thought.

    Are you saying that canonizations are not part of revelation because you do not believe that they are declared as being revealed? Or are you going the Stubborn route of "it must have been taught 'always' " in a diachronic sense, going back to the Apostles and Fathers?

    I say that without implying that I disagree with Stubborn, or you, btw. Just seeking clarification of your position.
    Non enim omnes qui ex Israel sunt, ii sunt Israelitae (Roman 9:6)

    Offline X

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #12 on: April 12, 2021, 05:20:05 PM »
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  • I like the ring of that, but what's your authoritative source?

    If the pope and the bishops - the teaching office of the Church, the Magisterium - teach something as revealed, then it's ipso facto part of revelation  . . . so goes one school of thought.

    Are you saying that canonizations are not part of revelation because you do not believe that they are declared as being revealed? Or are you going the Stubborn route of "it must have been taught 'always' " in a diachronic sense, going back to the Apostles and Fathers?

    I say that without implying that I disagree with Stubborn, or you, btw. Just seeking clarification of your position.
    It would be clearer if you would respond to the Salza article (which encapsulates my position precisely).

    Ps: I am Sean Johnson, but logged in with wrong account on my cell (fat thumb syndrome).

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #13 on: April 12, 2021, 05:33:59 PM »
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  • Yes, I believe that canonizations are infallible AT LEAST in terms of certainly establishing the presence of a soul in heaven, and also most likely in determining that a soul had heroic virtue worthy of emulation.  I mean, it's possible that Adolf Hitler or Joe Stalin converted on their death beds, spent 50 years of intense Purgatory, and are now in heaven, but it would still be offensive and contrary to the Holy Spirit's protection of the Church were the Church to have canonized either one of them.
    I remember a book on Fatima I read a long time ago.  Lucy ask the Blessed Mother in one of the visions about a child friend
    that recently past away.  She was told the little girl was in purgatory until the end of time. If by chance if Hitler and Stalin did
    convert at the time of their deaths it only be fair that they are in purgatory until the end of time. Their sins were far more
    graver than the little friend of Lucy.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you believe Canonizations are Infallible?
    « Reply #14 on: April 12, 2021, 05:57:54 PM »
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  • If it ain’t part of revelation, it can’t be the subject of infallibility.

    That statement is absolutely false and betrays a massive (willful) ignorance.  All of these grave errors are the result of "anything but sedevacantism."

    MAJOR:  Sedevacantism is false (de fide)
    MINOR:  V2 popes have canonized some bad people (Paul VI, John XXIII, Escriva, Mother Theresa, etc).
    CONCLUSION:  Canonizations are not infallible.

    Have the honesty to admit that this is your REAL argument.  More and more the disgraceful filth that is R&R manifests itself ... constantly besmirching Holy Mother Church to save Bergoglio.  You should be ashamed.


     

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