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Author Topic: Do Trads have any principles about the Faith, Vatican 2, the Mass?  (Read 1036 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

Re: Do Trads have any principles about the Faith, Vatican 2, the Mass?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2021, 10:09:46 PM »
While I understand what the OP is getting at, and its probably true in some cases, I can see some plausible, principled reasons for the phenomena that Matthew describes.

1: Some people might believe in the acceptability of a range of chapel options and/or they might not have access to a Resistance chapel so they might see it as acceptable to attend another Tridentine chapel whether Indult or Sede (or just staying put).  SSPV leans sede but is not dogmatically sede, its easy to imagine someone taking the same position as the ressitance ideally speaking also thinking they could attend there for sacraments.

2: Someone could sincerely take the current SSPX line (as opposed to the indult line... there are still substantial differences) on Rome/Trad relations.  I definitely get the impression Lefebvre himself leaned this way in the early 80s, though perhaps I'm wrong.

3: Lefebvre said if his work was blessed by God it would endure.  Someone could legitimately see the SSPX, as the 800 lb gorilla of Tradition as it were, as being guided by the Holy Spirit in that the alternative could be seen as ecclesial defection.

4: As a corrolary to this, some people might think the SSPX is licit because it was formed with Rome's approval, and only later canonically suppressed, so they might not see other groups as licit.

I could probably think of others.  
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Offline andy

Re: Do Trads have any principles about the Faith, Vatican 2, the Mass?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2021, 11:11:13 AM »
I think that the sticky point is that SSPX affirms that Rome is still Catholic, although fallen deeply in the error and the sin, and they still have a chance. While Resistance and Sedes pretty much wrote NO off.
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Offline Seraphina

Re: Do Trads have any principles about the Faith, Vatican 2, the Mass?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2021, 12:31:24 PM »
Many can’t join the Resistance formally because there is no chapel reasonably close to attend, say, once a month.  Any less than that and the children will not have a stable spiritual life.  Not everyone can start their own chapel.  I dare say most lack the resources, financial, space, ability to bring in a priest on a regular basis.  Example, where I’m staying right now, hunkered down, as +Bp. Williamson would say, would entail a full day’s (or night’s) travel, whether by plane, car, or both.  Mass would have to be held outside; not feasible in the far northern US in winter or bad weather.  One can only fit a half dozen people in a tiny cabin.  Think, “Unibomber” homestead without the bombs!  There’s no electric, no plumbing, just an outhouse.  The last 18 miles are on a dirt/ice or snow covered/muddy/sandy/ rocky/chuckhole filled logging road.  There is room for two small vehicles or one larger one to park.  Furthermore, the nearest US airport is a five to six hour drive, season and weather depending.  There is an airport slightly closer in Canada, but right now, getting through there with covidmania requires special permits and extensive quarantines.  There are no traditional Catholics except for myself.  In fact, there are few people living here at all!    
It’s a great place to wait out for the S to HTF. But to sponsor Mass?  No.  Maybe if the FEMA camps are full and there are only a small number of Catholics on the loose that somehow get a priest and smuggle him in for a midnight Mass and out again by daylight.  
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Offline Matthew

  • Mod
Re: Do Trads have any principles about the Faith, Vatican 2, the Mass?
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2021, 02:06:55 PM »
That kind of proves my point. Going to a specific Trad chapel "for the kids sake" need not be a bad thing -- but it does suggest I'm right, that the person didn't sit down with a stack of books, and with the impartiality of a compass needle, decide which way they were going to go.

I'm not talking about the essentials of the Traditional Movement by the way -- only the "extras" or "accidentals" like Missale version, Pope question, Holy Week version, and Dialogue Mass or No. Even the more subtle elements of "what to consider Vatican II" -- as long as the New Mass isn't coming into the chapel in question, most parishioners don't care you have the extreme "Vatican II Delenda Est" position, or the more liberal "Vatican II is 90% good" of +Fellay, or the typical Indult/conservative position "Vatican II was never properly implemented"

My point is that Trads like to pretend that their whole position, essentials and accidentals, was reached impartially after much study, prayer, and consideration -- but usually it falls into your lap, due to your spouse, family situation (having kids, for example), geography, or countless other happenstances and coincidences.

Then after attending a chapel for years, you obviously aren't going to have an aversion to that chapel's official position, even if you agree somewhat. I knew Sedes who attended my old SSPX chapel -- but they weren't the dogmatic variety, or the Cekada style "anti-una cuм" variety, since they want to an R&R chapel every Sunday, where the priest mentioned the Pope in the Canon of the Mass. Even if such a Sede doesn't "convert" to the chapel's position, he will certainly develop a tolerance for it: they're not that bad, they're not the bad guy, not a big deal, or something along those lines.
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Offline Matthew

  • Mod
Re: Do Trads have any principles about the Faith, Vatican 2, the Mass?
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2021, 02:11:38 PM »
Quote
"Some people might believe in the acceptability of a range of chapel options"

Um, that's precisely what I'm talking about in this thread. That is the very definition of un-picky, or un-principled. Not getting to hung up on principles -- whatever you want to call it.

They're a solid practicing Trad Catholic maybe -- no plans to go to the Novus Ordo or join any other religion -- but other than that, they don't care. They prefer to spend a total of 1 hour (plus travel time) on "religion" each week -- and the Mass takes an hour. So they don't spend a lot of other time reading books, forums, or wasting valuable brain cells or brain electricity on questions of religion or the Crisis in the Church. A lot of Catholics are either too busy, they are just Sunday Catholics, or dare I say lukewarm.

Just look at what percent of Catholics regularly visit ANY "Traditional Catholic" forum. I would say less than 5% do. What about the rest? They get enough Catholic socialization in-person, because they live in a Catholic mecca like St. Marys, KS?  I doubt it. They are obviously doing tons of socializing with pagans and heretics, so they must not have the Faith in the center of their life.

When you are a serious Catholic, with the Faith in the center of your life (who you are, what you do each day) you will NOT be able to happily mingle with pagans and not miss socializing with other Trads. If your day-to-day life is indistinguishable from that of the surrounding pagans, however...
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