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Author Topic: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?  (Read 35075 times)

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Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2020, 08:12:54 AM »
Isn't a mixed marriage only considered "valid" as a "natural law" marriage?  It surely isn't a sacramental marriage, so it's not valid, from a sacramental/Church aspect, but only valid from a human promise aspect.  This would all be true even if the couple was married by a priest, no?  He can bless the marriage, but it's still not sacramental.  If the couple didn't get Church approval, it would be a sin.  If the priest performed the ceremony without approval, it would also be a sin.
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Certainly if any catholic gets "married" by a non-Catholic (in any shape), that is not a catholic/sacramental marriage.  In fact, such an act would be a grave sin.  It would not be a marriage at all, neither natural law or sacramental.  The best the couple could hope for, spiritually speaking, would be if they stayed together and God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows.  But spiritually speaking, this would be the worst-case scenario for a catholic, only slightly better than co-habitating (but maybe, from a moral theology standpoint, the same grave sin as co-habitating).
I don't mean to question your traditionalist bona fides, but some of this just doesn't sound right --- "valid from a human promise aspect", "God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows" --- God does not bless people for sin.  It's not "slightly better than cohabitating", it is cohabitating.

Here is how I have always understood it:

* Catholic marries Catholic with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
* Catholic marries Catholic outside of canonical form (outside of the emergency situation where a priest cannot be had for a month) - invalid
* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
* Catholic marries non-Christian with canonical form (i.e., dispensation) - natural marriage but not sacramental
* Catholic marries non-Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
* Two non-Catholic Christians marry - valid sacramental marriage
* Non-Catholic Christian marries non-Christian - natural marriage but not sacramental
* Two non-Christians marry - natural marriage but not sacramental (but if one spouse becomes a Catholic and the remaining non-Christian spouse will not live peaceably with them, the Catholic may remarry per the Pauline Privilege)

If any of this is incorrect, please show me how.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2020, 10:14:08 AM »
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* Catholic marries Catholic with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
* Catholic marries Catholic outside of canonical form (outside of the emergency situation where a priest cannot be had for a month) - invalid
Agree so far.
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* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
Assuming a 'non-Catholic christian' = baptized?  If so, it would be a valid marriage, but can't be a sacrament because the non-Catholic isn't in the state of grace, being (essentially) an apostate catholic.  The Church can bless a marriage as valid, even if the marriage isn't sacramental.  That's my understanding.  This is why you have to get permission for mixed marriages...because the Church recognizes the loss of grace that such a marriage has, so She wants to discourage it from being normal.
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* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
* Catholic marries non-Christian with canonical form (i.e., dispensation) - natural marriage but not sacramental
* Catholic marries non-Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
If by 'canonical form' you mean marriage by a priest/bishop, then I agree.
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* Two non-Catholic Christians marry - valid sacramental marriage
It would be a valid, natural marriage.  Sacramental marriages can only occur when 2 baptized, practicing Catholics, in the state of grace, get married in the Church.
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* Non-Catholic Christian marries non-Christian - natural marriage but not sacramental
Agree.
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* Two non-Christians marry - natural marriage but not sacramental (but if one spouse becomes a Catholic and the remaining non-Christian spouse will not live peaceably with them, the Catholic may remarry per the Pauline Privilege)
Agree.
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Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2020, 06:51:00 PM »
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* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
Assuming a 'non-Catholic christian' = baptized?  If so, it would be a valid marriage, but can't be a sacrament because the non-Catholic isn't in the state of grace, being (essentially) an apostate catholic.  The Church can bless a marriage as valid, even if the marriage isn't sacramental.  That's my understanding.  This is why you have to get permission for mixed marriages...because the Church recognizes the loss of grace that such a marriage has, so She wants to discourage it from being normal.

Never heard this before.  I hate to be this way, but do you have a source?  I didn't know we made judgments about non-Catholic Christians being in the state of grace or not.  Curiously enough, when I first became a Catholic, I just took it for granted that this was why non-Catholic Christians couldn't receive communion --- we think they're all in mortal sin (at least to objective outward appearances).  Was I on the right track (at least from a traditionalist understanding)?

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* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
* Catholic marries non-Christian with canonical form (i.e., dispensation) - natural marriage but not sacramental
* Catholic marries non-Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
If by 'canonical form' you mean marriage by a priest/bishop, then I agree.

I am referring to following the procedures prescribed by the Church for a Catholic getting married.

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* Two non-Catholic Christians marry - valid sacramental marriage
It would be a valid, natural marriage.  Sacramental marriages can only occur when 2 baptized, practicing Catholics, in the state of grace, get married in the Church.

Again, see above.  I didn't know we ever made such judgments, even back in pre-V2 days.  (I know the post-V2 regime sure-as-shootin' doesn't make a judgment like that, perish the thought, horrors!)

Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2020, 10:11:21 PM »
Not clear on what you mean by this.  Are you referring to women who are attractive, who have found someone to marry, and don't want to wait a month?

Yes, sure. But not only women. Men too.

You were asking

Quote from: SimpleMan
why in the heck is it so important for people to be able to marry within the space of a month?

and I was commenting on your remark

Quote from: SimpleMan
that lady whose beauty is not visible to the outward observer, the man who doesn't have the social graces to attract a mate

You said that in order to suggest that some people should wait long or not marry at all:

Quote from: SimpleMan
Our Blessed Lord wills that some people have to wait a long time until they can find someone to marry.  He wills that some people not marry at all

True! And consequently, Our Lord wills that others don't have to wait long to marry. And Church Law provides that it's possible within a month.

Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2020, 11:35:54 PM »
True! And consequently, Our Lord wills that others don't have to wait long to marry. And Church Law provides that it's possible within a month.
Fair enough.  I suppose I just don't understand why the Church has a law allowing people to marry within a month, if they are otherwise going to be kept waiting through no fault of their own, when other people have to wait a long time to marry, possibly even half a lifetime, possibly never at all, through no fault of their own?  Why not say "you'll get married when we can get to it, nobody has to get married, if it is difficult for you to wait until we can accommodate you, then just consider that this is your cross to bear in the here and now, many people have it far worse".

But at the end of the day, the Church's law is what it is.  Not to make a mountain of a molehill, it just seems like kind of a double standard.