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Author Topic: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?  (Read 4198 times)

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Offline SimpleMan

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Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« on: June 26, 2020, 05:59:36 PM »
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    • I know the SSPX grants "Declarations of Nullity" (or rather, opinions regarding the nullity of marriages using pre-Vatican II norms), but do any other traditionalist bishops do this?  "Lack of form" would be pretty much a no-brainer, but "annulments" for any other reason --- is this a "thing" in traditional Catholicism?  And what does a traditional Catholic do, if they are divorced and want to be free to remarry?

    Does "supplied jurisdiction" extend to being able to declare lack of form, or to find putatively valid marriages null and void?
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #1 on: June 26, 2020, 08:48:41 PM »
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    • Yes, Bishop Mark Pivaronus does. He did this to a marriage Father Kevin Vaillancourt presided over. 
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    Offline St.Patrick

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #2 on: June 27, 2020, 04:34:37 AM »
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    • They should of course be able to do all that the pre vatican II church did.
    They are the only true bishops left. Sedes can't be trusted. So they have all the powers necessary to keep the Church going.


    An SSPX would not do it anymore, now that they have submitted to modernist Rome on marriages.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #3 on: June 27, 2020, 12:44:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Aristotl on June 26, 2020, 08:48:41 PM
    Yes, Bishop Mark Pivaronus does. He did this to a marriage Father Kevin Vaillancourt presided over.
    Just out of curiosity, was it a "lack of form" declaration or affidavit (i.e., a Catholic attempted marriage outside the Church that is ipso facto invalid, just in need of docuмentation and certification), or a true "annulment"?
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #4 on: June 27, 2020, 08:23:25 PM »
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    • Basically no. They apply the standards that were used before Vatican 2 for matrimony. If two (single) people get married in church and profess their vows to each other, they are married until death. Going in later and claiming you were ignorant/pressured/stupid/immature/didn't want children/incompatible didn't get you anywhere with Catholic bishops before Vatican 2, and it won't get you anywhere with Catholic sedevacantist priests or bishops now. And going in with an "annulment" from heretics given on any of the above grounds won't get you anywhere with them either. They'll just tell you you were sold a bill of goods by a bunch of heretics who don't believe in the sacrament of matrimony, and that in the eyes of God you are married until death. That "annulment" in your hands is as useless as an expired coupon for a carton of Eggo waffles.
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #5 on: June 27, 2020, 08:35:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on June 27, 2020, 08:23:25 PM
    Basically no.

    Do you deny then the accusation in this thread that the Pivmeister gave an annulment to a couple married by the fellow traditionalist priest Kevin Vaillancourt? Do you know of the details of this case? Or are you just expressing your "wish" that sedevacantist bishops would not give annulments? There is the world as we wish it would be and then the world as it is. A world where even traditionalists priests, sedevacantist or SSPX or resistance are accused of doing bad things.
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #6 on: June 27, 2020, 09:08:22 PM »
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    • I actually heard this from Father Kevin Vaillancourt.  Secondly, marriage was a former CMRI brother and he had two sons from this first marriage and married a young girl with the brother more than almost twice his age.  The new spouse was also a babysitter for the man and his wife.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #7 on: June 27, 2020, 11:01:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on June 27, 2020, 12:44:01 PM
    Just out of curiosity, was it a "lack of form" declaration or affidavit (i.e., a Catholic attempted marriage outside the Church that is ipso facto invalid, just in need of docuмentation and certification), or a true "annulment"?
    The Holy See has given them authority in some matters. It could give them authority in certain matters of annulments. 
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #8 on: June 27, 2020, 11:18:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: poche on June 27, 2020, 11:01:50 PM
    The Holy See has given them authority in some matters. It could give them authority in certain matters of annulments.
    That might be true of the SSPX, but I was thinking more of independent non-sedevacantist bishops (including SSPX Resistance), as well as bishops who are sedevacantist.  Neither has been given any authority by the Holy See.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #9 on: June 28, 2020, 07:57:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on June 27, 2020, 08:35:43 PM
    Do you deny then the accusation in this thread that the Pivmeister gave an annulment to a couple married by the fellow traditionalist priest Kevin Vaillancourt? Do you know of the details of this case? Or are you just expressing your "wish" that sedevacantist bishops would not give annulments? There is the world as we wish it would be and then the world as it is. A world where even traditionalists priests, sedevacantist or SSPX or resistance are accused of doing bad things.
    Pivmeister Matto?  Also, given Aristotl has made it quite clear in other posts that he believes the Thuc line to be invalid, I would question any of his allegations against any of them.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #10 on: June 28, 2020, 02:47:24 PM »
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    • Fr. Vaillancourt has been in terrible health for years, and it is commonly known that his ailments have had an effect on his mind. I wouldn't take a lot of what he says all that seriously without corroboration from someone else.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #11 on: June 28, 2020, 05:20:47 PM »
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    • This doesn't sound like a man who would grant an annulment:

    http://www.cmri.org/97prog9-1.htm

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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #12 on: June 28, 2020, 06:08:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 28, 2020, 05:20:47 PM
    This doesn't sound like a man who would grant an annulment:

    http://www.cmri.org/97prog9-1.htm

    Well, he can't really "grant" anything.  As with a couple other sedevacantists I knew, they give their opinion on the matter.  There are some clear-cut cases, e.g. where a person baptized Catholic "married" before a justice of the peace, or else "married" someone who had already been married.  They limit themselves to these clear-cut cases and would never venture into the realm of the difficult cases which would traditionally have required multi-year investigations and the calling of witnesses.  Not only do they not have the time, but they do not have the training nor the authority to be able to adjudicate these cases.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #13 on: June 28, 2020, 07:49:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 28, 2020, 06:08:45 PM
    Well, he can't really "grant" anything.  As with a couple other sedevacantists I knew, they give their opinion on the matter.  There are some clear-cut cases, e.g. where a person baptized Catholic "married" before a justice of the peace, or else "married" someone who had already been married.  They limit themselves to these clear-cut cases and would never venture into the realm of the difficult cases which would traditionally have required multi-year investigations and the calling of witnesses.  Not only do they not have the time, but they do not have the training nor the authority to be able to adjudicate these cases.
    So are you saying that the only marriage cases traditionalist bishops render judgment upon, are those that involve lack/defect of form?

    That is really more an administrative matter than anything else.  It doesn't require any assessment of the marriage other than "did they observe canonical form and/or did they attempt to marry a person whom they were not free to marry?".
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #14 on: June 28, 2020, 08:22:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on June 28, 2020, 07:49:57 PM
    So are you saying that the only marriage cases traditionalist bishops render judgment upon, are those that involve lack/defect of form?

    That is really more an administrative matter than anything else.  It doesn't require any assessment of the marriage other than "did they observe canonical form and/or did they attempt to marry a person whom they were not free to marry?".

    That's what a couple of them have told me.  And they basically tell the people inquiring that it is their opinion or judgment.  They have no authority or adequate training to actually grant anything akin to a formal annulment.
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