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Author Topic: Do sedevacantists married in the Conciliar Church conditionally remarry?  (Read 2842 times)

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Offline Geremia

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Suppose a Catholic couple gets married in what sedevacantists would call the schismatic Conciliar Church. Then, suppose this couple becomes sedevacantist. They would have to consider their marriage invalid, since Catholics cannot marry in schismatic churches. Would they conditionally remarry?
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Offline Mithrandylan

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  • The Church supplies the Jurisdiction.  Canon law also provides for couples to marry just before witnesses if their pastor won't be able to marry them within a month (or maybe two, I can't quite remember).

    The couple are the ministers of the sacrament.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Frances

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  • The couple administer the sacrament to one another.  So the answer is no.  There is no conditional marriage in any Catholic Church.
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  

    Offline Geremia

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  • Why doesn't Ecclesia supplet in the case baptized Catholics "marry" in front of a justice of the peace, then?
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Why doesn't Ecclesia supplet in the case baptized Catholics "marry" in front of a justice of the peace, then?


    Sorry I wasn't clear.

    According to canon 209, the Church supplies the lacking jurisdiction in a few different cases, the one which would normally concern us regarding marriage by a Novus Ordo priest would be "common error" which is when the community is in error about the existence of jurisdiction.  The typical illustrative example given is of a priest visiting a parish for some reason or another where he does not have jurisdiction to hear confession.  For some reason or another, he puts on a stole and heads to the confessional at a time when the parish has confessions.  The faithful would approach him assuming he has jurisdiction to hear their confession, but he doesn't.  Because there is common error regarding the existence of jurisdiction, and the law exists for the common good, the Church supplies this priest the lacking jurisdiction.

    In similar fashion, a couple wishes to be married in the Catholic Church, so what do they do?  They approach the diocese and the local "Catholic Church" and the local "Catholic priest" and they undergo marriage instruction under the "Catholic" laws and customs and have a "Catholic wedding" overseen and witnessed by a "Catholic priest."  Not only the couple, but the entire community (marriage is public in nature) is in common error regarding the jurisdiction of the priest, who is most likely not even a priest and who likewise almost certainly does not enjoy jurisdiction.

    The priest merely exists as the Church's witness to the marriage.  The validity of the marriage is not an issue, since the couple are the ministers of the sacrament.  The real question is one of lawfulness, and that is sated by the supplication of jurisdiction due to common error regarding the priest (or, "priest" if you prefer) officiating the marriage.

    No one will experience common error regarding a justice of the peace.  Catholics who go to such a minister for marriage are quite obviously avoiding marrying in the Church (something which cannot be said for couples who go to the Novus Ordo) and no one else confuses a justice of the peace with a Catholic priest, either.

    Does that make sense?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Geremia

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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: Geremia
    Why doesn't Ecclesia supplet in the case baptized Catholics "marry" in front of a justice of the peace, then?


    Sorry I wasn't clear.

    According to canon 209, the Church supplies the lacking jurisdiction in a few different cases, the one which would normally concern us regarding marriage by a Novus Ordo priest would be "common error" which is when the community is in error about the existence of jurisdiction.  The typical illustrative example given is of a priest visiting a parish for some reason or another where he does not have jurisdiction to hear confession.  For some reason or another, he puts on a stole and heads to the confessional at a time when the parish has confessions.  The faithful would approach him assuming he has jurisdiction to hear their confession, but he doesn't.  Because there is common error regarding the existence of jurisdiction, and the law exists for the common good, the Church supplies this priest the lacking jurisdiction.

    In similar fashion, a couple wishes to be married in the Catholic Church, so what do they do?  They approach the diocese and the local "Catholic Church" and the local "Catholic priest" and they undergo marriage instruction under the "Catholic" laws and customs and have a "Catholic wedding" overseen and witnessed by a "Catholic priest."  Not only the couple, but the entire community (marriage is public in nature) is in common error regarding the jurisdiction of the priest, who is most likely not even a priest and who likewise almost certainly does not enjoy jurisdiction.

    The priest merely exists as the Church's witness to the marriage.  The validity of the marriage is not an issue, since the couple are the ministers of the sacrament.  The real question is one of lawfulness, and that is sated by the supplication of jurisdiction due to common error regarding the priest (or, "priest" if you prefer) officiating the marriage.

    No one will experience common error regarding a justice of the peace.  Catholics who go to such a minister for marriage are quite obviously avoiding marrying in the Church (something which cannot be said for couples who go to the Novus Ordo) and no one else confuses a justice of the peace with a Catholic priest, either.

    Does that make sense?
    Yes, I understand supplied jurisdiction, but wouldn't you have to say it's common error for Catholics to marry in front of a justice of the peace, thinking that confers a valid marriage?
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    Offline TKGS

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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Why doesn't Ecclesia supplet in the case baptized Catholics "marry" in front of a justice of the peace, then?


    Because the couple does not have the intention of marrying in the Church.

    Offline Righteousness

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  • Quote from: Frances
    The couple administer the sacrament to one another.  So the answer is no.  There is no conditional marriage in any Catholic Church.


    This is partially correct but incorrect. The Church requires an authorized delegate sent by the local ordinary to witness the marriage. In all sede circles, their "priests" possess no jurisdiction and all marriages are invalid (Canon 1108 - 1123). They fail to meet the requirements of Canon Law.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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  • Quote from: Righteousness
    Quote from: Frances
    The couple administer the sacrament to one another.  So the answer is no.  There is no conditional marriage in any Catholic Church.


    This is partially correct but incorrect. The Church requires an authorized delegate sent by the local ordinary to witness the marriage. In all sede circles, their "priests" possess no jurisdiction and all marriages are invalid (Canon 1108 - 1123). They fail to meet the requirements of Canon Law.


    It is ironic that with the exception of the hypothetical very old priest, neither marriages before a traditional priest in a trad chapel, nor marriages before a Novus Ordo priest meet the requirements of canon law.

    ETA: Not to say that either are unlawful as such, just that as our traditional chapels are not approved by an ordinary (and therefore do not satisfy the Sunday obligation) so, too marriage.  These really are crazy times!
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: Geremia
    Why doesn't Ecclesia supplet in the case baptized Catholics "marry" in front of a justice of the peace, then?


    Sorry I wasn't clear.

    According to canon 209, the Church supplies the lacking jurisdiction in a few different cases, the one which would normally concern us regarding marriage by a Novus Ordo priest would be "common error" which is when the community is in error about the existence of jurisdiction.  The typical illustrative example given is of a priest visiting a parish for some reason or another where he does not have jurisdiction to hear confession.  For some reason or another, he puts on a stole and heads to the confessional at a time when the parish has confessions.  The faithful would approach him assuming he has jurisdiction to hear their confession, but he doesn't.  Because there is common error regarding the existence of jurisdiction, and the law exists for the common good, the Church supplies this priest the lacking jurisdiction.

    In similar fashion, a couple wishes to be married in the Catholic Church, so what do they do?  They approach the diocese and the local "Catholic Church" and the local "Catholic priest" and they undergo marriage instruction under the "Catholic" laws and customs and have a "Catholic wedding" overseen and witnessed by a "Catholic priest."  Not only the couple, but the entire community (marriage is public in nature) is in common error regarding the jurisdiction of the priest, who is most likely not even a priest and who likewise almost certainly does not enjoy jurisdiction.

    The priest merely exists as the Church's witness to the marriage.  The validity of the marriage is not an issue, since the couple are the ministers of the sacrament.  The real question is one of lawfulness, and that is sated by the supplication of jurisdiction due to common error regarding the priest (or, "priest" if you prefer) officiating the marriage.

    No one will experience common error regarding a justice of the peace.  Catholics who go to such a minister for marriage are quite obviously avoiding marrying in the Church (something which cannot be said for couples who go to the Novus Ordo) and no one else confuses a justice of the peace with a Catholic priest, either.

    Does that make sense?
    Yes, I understand supplied jurisdiction, but wouldn't you have to say it's common error for Catholics to marry in front of a justice of the peace, thinking that confers a valid marriage?


    I'll admit that it's a pretty thorny situation.  There are a lot of things to consider.  What mainly governs this question is canon law, which makes it more difficult since none of us are canonists and the canonists we might consult can help, but certainly never answered or anticipated the difficulties and nuances faced in this current situation.

    First: Those baptized in the Catholic Church are obliged to observe the Church's laws regarding marriage.  This includes proper form, which is marrying with the assistance of their local pastor.

    However, in today's situation, local pastors aren't exactly plenteous.  It would have to be a very old priest, made a pastor a very long time ago, having remained in the same area and appointed by a real bishop.  Chances of finding one are very small.

    First and a half: Traditional clergy do not have jurisdiction, so it's not like their marriages meet the requirements of the law, either.  They are valid, certainly, but only because of the incredible situation we find ourselves in.  The jurisdiction is supplied for some reason or another.  

    Second: The Church does provide for instances where the couple can marry validly without the pastor, either in danger of death or if it can be prudently and morally estimated that the pastor or a priest will not be available within a month (it is a month, I checked up on it).  This tells us that the Church does not regard marriages taken place without the assistance of a pastor as always invalid, rather in a case where this is morally impossible the marriage can still occur.  This seems to suggest to me that the couple's intent to follow the Church's laws does factor into determining the lawfulness and even validity of the marriage in our times, although I have not read a canonist who has said so in those words, I think the conclusion is inescapable.  The Church does not intend to unreasonably bind us to that which cannot easily be achieved.  So those who simply refuse to follow the Church's laws who are obliged to do so (those baptized in the Catholic Church*) and marry outside of her** marry invalidly, but those who intend to follow her laws and are simply unable to through no fault of their own may still validly contract marriage.  This is the underlining principle at work, I believe.



    Third: I believe that there is also some consideration due to what exactly is meant by marrying "in the Novus Ordo."  Is this with the Novus Ordo nuptial rite?  Now, in the case where the Novus Ordo nuptial rite is used, one may try to argue that the form of the nuptial rite is not approved.  I'm not sure if this would be the case or not, but even if it were, from my reading it seems that the form of the nuptial rite (distinct from the form of marriage, which requires Catholics to marry with the assistance of the pastor or a delegate) does not contribute to the validity or invalidity of the marriage, so long as the marriage vows are exchanged-- even if everything surrounding the vows is garbage, the vows are the essential form as it were.  So even in the case of a "pure" Novus Ordo Wedding, I'm not so sure that the fact that the rite is the Novus Ordo rite poses any intrinsic difficulty to validity.  When considering the nuptial rite itself, the validity does not seem to depend on the form of the rite (except inasmuch as the exchange of vows is concerned) but rather when the "form of marriage" is spoken of, it is meant that the marriage occurs with the assistance of the local pastor or a delegate.  Also, see my ** footnote for a little more on this.

    Fourth: (Most importantly!!!) Marriage enjoys the presumption of law.  That means that when a marriage is attempted and consummated, it is presumed valid unless proven otherwise.  There is no principle by which a marriage should be treated as invalid unless it is proven to be invalid.  This is actually pretty incredible, since with most sacraments a doubt obliges us to treat it as a non-sacrament, but with marriage there must be proof of invalidity.  So, except in cases where it is obviously invalid (so, for example, a Catholic getting married to a Buddhist after a long weekend in Vegas) there really is nothing to worry about.  And IMO, I don't think that those who married in the Novus Ordo should have any serious doubts to the validity of their marriage on that fact alone.

    If you'd like citations for anything I've said, I'll be happy to provide them.


    A footnote more to highlight all of the nuances and thorny patches the canonists will have to wade through after the restoration (God willing).  This isn't really essential to the issue at hand, but I find it interesting and Church law (esp. on marriage) is one of my favorite topics.

    * "Those baptized in the Catholic Church" are those who are baptized with the intention of being incorporated into the Catholic Church.  For infants, this desire or intention is manifested by the parents who bring the child to the local Catholic Church to have the local Catholic priest baptize the baby according to Catholic ceremonies.  I think that as a general rule, this applies to those in the Novus Ordo but cases where it doesn't are easily conceivable.  When a Novus Ordo couple has the first of the two children they plan on having and brings the baby to the local liberal Church for a water initiation with no intention of actually entering the Church again or teaching the child the faith (even the Novus Ordo faith) where there is no mention of original sin and the person performing the baptism (who might not be a priest or a deacon) doesn't really think he's doing anything other than incorporating the child into the Christian community, is that child, without respect to whether or not the baptism is valid, "baptized in the Catholic Church?"  I think a convincing argument could be made that such a person is NOT "baptized in the Catholic Church" and as such would not be subject to the laws of the Church.  On the flip side, if a good willed couple has a child and brings it to the local Novus Ordo Church to be baptized into the Catholic Church by a man whose probably not a priest but is devout anyways and according to a watered-down baptismal rite, is such a child "baptized in the Catholic Church?"  I think the answer would be yes.

    ** Incidentally, I checked Woywood and he actually says that in an instance where no priest can be had, a couple could marry in front of a justice of the peace or any other non-Catholic minister, provided that they did not let him perform a religious ceremony.  He did not comment as to whether or not a religious ceremony would affect the validity of such a marriage-- I think that it wouldn't, unless the religious ceremony was actually requested with the intention of marrying outside of the Church.  In the case of marrying before a Novus Ordo priest with the Novus Ordo nuptial rite and a Novus Ordo mass, the couple believe they are requesting a Catholic rite.  Concurrently, I do not see this as affecting validity.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Do sedevacantists married in the Conciliar Church conditionally remarry?
    « Reply #10 on: May 28, 2014, 10:48:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Righteousness
    Quote from: Frances
    The couple administer the sacrament to one another.  So the answer is no.  There is no conditional marriage in any Catholic Church.


    This is partially correct but incorrect. The Church requires an authorized delegate sent by the local ordinary to witness the marriage. In all sede circles, their "priests" possess no jurisdiction and all marriages are invalid (Canon 1108 - 1123). They fail to meet the requirements of Canon Law.


    I thumbed you up but didn't really realize what you were saying (it became clear to me after another post of yours elsewhere on the forum).  I thought you were pointing out the irony of both Novus Ordo and traditional weddings have jurisdiction supplied to the assisting priests.  I see that you are not saying that.

    I'm not sure where you're coming from, but that exact argument can be applied to the SSPX as well, who are not sent from an ordinary.  It's a stupid argument, since the Church supplies the jurisdiction.  So, where are you coming from?  Novus Ordo?  You don't have a leg to stand on.  You don't even have priests or a mass over there!  What gives?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline poche

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    Do sedevacantists married in the Conciliar Church conditionally remarry?
    « Reply #11 on: May 30, 2014, 12:51:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: Geremia
    Why doesn't Ecclesia supplet in the case baptized Catholics "marry" in front of a justice of the peace, then?


    Sorry I wasn't clear.

    According to canon 209, the Church supplies the lacking jurisdiction in a few different cases, the one which would normally concern us regarding marriage by a Novus Ordo priest would be "common error" which is when the community is in error about the existence of jurisdiction.  The typical illustrative example given is of a priest visiting a parish for some reason or another where he does not have jurisdiction to hear confession.  For some reason or another, he puts on a stole and heads to the confessional at a time when the parish has confessions.  The faithful would approach him assuming he has jurisdiction to hear their confession, but he doesn't.  Because there is common error regarding the existence of jurisdiction, and the law exists for the common good, the Church supplies this priest the lacking jurisdiction.

    In similar fashion, a couple wishes to be married in the Catholic Church, so what do they do?  They approach the diocese and the local "Catholic Church" and the local "Catholic priest" and they undergo marriage instruction under the "Catholic" laws and customs and have a "Catholic wedding" overseen and witnessed by a "Catholic priest."  Not only the couple, but the entire community (marriage is public in nature) is in common error regarding the jurisdiction of the priest, who is most likely not even a priest and who likewise almost certainly does not enjoy jurisdiction.

    The priest merely exists as the Church's witness to the marriage.  The validity of the marriage is not an issue, since the couple are the ministers of the sacrament.  The real question is one of lawfulness, and that is sated by the supplication of jurisdiction due to common error regarding the priest (or, "priest" if you prefer) officiating the marriage.

    No one will experience common error regarding a justice of the peace.  Catholics who go to such a minister for marriage are quite obviously avoiding marrying in the Church (something which cannot be said for couples who go to the Novus Ordo) and no one else confuses a justice of the peace with a Catholic priest, either.

    Does that make sense?

    If you want your marriage to be recognized by the Catholic Church this is the rulebook that you will have to follow;

     http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

    Offline Quasimodo

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    Do sedevacantists married in the Conciliar Church conditionally remarry?
    « Reply #12 on: May 30, 2014, 06:53:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche

    If you want your marriage to be recognized by the Catholic Church this is the rulebook that you will have to follow;

     http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

    Even then from what I hear you only have a 50% chance at validity. :rolleyes:

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Do sedevacantists married in the Conciliar Church conditionally remarry?
    « Reply #13 on: May 30, 2014, 08:18:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: Quasimodo
    Quote from: poche

    If you want your marriage to be recognized by the Catholic Church this is the rulebook that you will have to follow;

     http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

    Even then from what I hear you only have a 50% chance at validity. :rolleyes:


    Ha!   :roll-laugh2:
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).