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Author Topic: Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why  (Read 52944 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why
« on: November 03, 2025, 04:19:38 PM »
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  • The Inquisitors discuss the Traditional Movement, specifically its history, how it has changed over the years, and how fundamental human flaws such as Pride have caused various drama in the Traditional communities.

    https://www.bitchute.com/video/tsq2ISOLFYKY
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why
    « Reply #1 on: November 05, 2025, 04:20:30 PM »
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  • The Inquisitors discuss the Traditional Movement, specifically its history, how it has changed over the years, and how fundamental human flaws such as Pride have caused various drama in the Traditional communities.

    https://www.bitchute.com/video/tsq2ISOLFYKY

    "All were given is that we are supposed to keep our faith during this crisis, and to make sure we're Catholic when it's all over"

    That's a quote!

    Great idea about compiling chapel histories, that is hard info to find..generally you'll read something like "___ Chapel was founded in 19xx by Fr. ____" ...Let's hear the good stuff, people! How did the local NOers react? Any confrontations with NO priests/bishops? What was the chapel community like? Any notable debates/arguments? Funny stories? Splits/divisions? So much will be lost to time
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why
    « Reply #2 on: November 05, 2025, 04:50:57 PM »
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  • In the early days at our independent chapel (before my time), they used to gather there to pray the Rosary together. Also in the early days, they didn't have 1 steady priest. The priest who Baptized me, for example, was not the same priest that I grew up with. Fr. Slupski didn't start saying Mass there till 1979 or so.

    That chapel ties in with the history of TAN Books, because that chapel was founded by Thomas A. Nelson (R.I.P.)

    I wasn't there when the chapel was founded, but the building was located in a residential neighborhood. And here's the strange part -- it used to be a bookstore. The huge, glass storefront windows were long-since boarded up and painted a solid burgundy color. It just looked like regular walls to me; the whole building was the same color. It had an apartment above, and a basement below. And there was a staircase in back that went from the basement, all the way up to the 2nd floor. I thought it was SO cozy and neat when I was a boy. Any house with split-offs and secret passageways is cool in my book.

    Oh, and the street the chapel was on had *cobblestones* instead of asphalt or concrete. One of the only cobblestone streets in the whole town!

    The basement had all the "extra" books and equipment we didn't need for regular chapel use. Including many full-sized (life sized) statues with minor damage. Tom Nelson got all kinds of goodies from churches and religious houses that went "out of business". Our chapel was fully equipped. There were a ton of old books in the basement on shelves as well; I thought that was like a cozy library. That was the room we held Catechism class in, too. Brings back memories.
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    Online St Giles

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    Re: Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why
    « Reply #3 on: November 05, 2025, 06:04:11 PM »
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  • The old Angelus magazines should contain the startup story of at least a few chapels.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Mat183

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    Re: Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why
    « Reply #4 on: November 05, 2025, 07:26:19 PM »
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  • In the early days at our independent chapel (before my time), they used to gather there to pray the Rosary together. Also in the early days, they didn't have 1 steady priest. The priest who Baptized me, for example, was not the same priest that I grew up with. Fr. Slupski didn't start saying Mass there till 1979 or so.

    That chapel ties in with the history of TAN Books, because that chapel was founded by Thomas A. Nelson (R.I.P.)

    I wasn't there when the chapel was founded, but the building was located in a residential neighborhood. And here's the strange part -- it used to be a bookstore. The huge, glass storefront windows were long-since boarded up and painted a solid burgundy color. It just looked like regular walls to me; the whole building was the same color. It had an apartment above, and a basement below. And there was a staircase in back that went from the basement, all the way up to the 2nd floor. I thought it was SO cozy and neat when I was a boy. Any house with split-offs and secret passageways is cool in my book.

    Oh, and the street the chapel was on had *cobblestones* instead of asphalt or concrete. One of the only cobblestone streets in the whole town!

    The basement had all the "extra" books and equipment we didn't need for regular chapel use. Including many full-sized (life sized) statues with minor damage. Tom Nelson got all kinds of goodies from churches and religious houses that went "out of business". Our chapel was fully equipped. There were a ton of old books in the basement on shelves as well; I thought that was like a cozy library. That was the room we held Catechism class in, too. Brings back memories.

    Tom asked the Rev. Brian Bovee, Institute of Christ the King (who was serving at St. Marys in Rockford, IL at the time) to review the manuscript of the book you see below and then had that priest pose for the cover shot which I am not mistaken was taken in said chapel.  The year was 1997 or '98.  The current TAN Books still sells that same book, but they have changed the cover.




    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why
    « Reply #5 on: November 05, 2025, 11:22:51 PM »
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  • Tom asked the Rev. Brian Bovee, Institute of Christ the King (who was serving at St. Marys in Rockford, IL at the time) to review the manuscript of the book you see below and then had that priest pose for the cover shot which I am not mistaken was taken in said chapel.  The year was 1997 or '98.  The current TAN Books still sells that same book, but they have changed the cover.


    Yup, that's all true. That was in the TAN Books chapel though, not Tom's independent chapel started in the mid 1970s. Tom only set up a chapel in his massive warehouse on the East Side of town after he moved the business there (I was an employee at the time of the move).

    Yeah -- the Institute of Christ the King is a whole other topic. They came to town in the 1990s, eventually getting control of an old church, St. Mary's which was located downtown. About 80% of the chapel left and started going to that Indult chapel. I was a teenager at the time; I kind of went to both of them. My cousin and I jokingly called the place "mega Mass" because everything was bigger & better *materially speaking*, including donuts after Mass which we never had experienced at our old chapel.

    Talk about playing 1950s Catholic parish. It was a complete LARP. They sold "pizza kits" and raised money to buy stained glass windows. Crisis? What Crisis? Modernism? Doctrine? We're just a 1950's parish here, kid.

    Fr. Bovee liked to joke a bit during his sermons. The other priest, Fr. Timothy Svea, was the one with the more "devout" or "holy" bearing. I attended a "vocational awareness" day at some rural location under the auspices of the Institute. Actually it might have been more than one day; I don't remember. Anyhow, at some point each of the boys (I was one of the oldest, about 23) got one-on-one time to talk with Fr. Svea. I remember how naive I was; I thought he was traditional! So I spoke of the New Mass as being the "abomination of desolation" as if that was as given (I have never read "The Great Sacrilege", but I'm sure I got much of its doctrine, as Tom Nelson was my catechism teacher). I'll never forget Fr. Svea's response: "Baloney!" and it totally took me off-guard. I thought he was "one of us" and was shocked to find out he was not. I also remember during this Vocational Awareness event watching the men convert a church from Novus Ordo to Trad mode. It was a bit disturbing.

    Fr. Svea later was involved in a scandal. Yes, that kind of scandal. Ugh. It is all in the public record, so no, it's not detraction...
    https://wausaupilotandreview.com/2023/03/27/former-wausau-priest-sentenced-to-prison-with-lifetime-supervision-for-serious-offenders/
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why
    « Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 06:20:52 AM »
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  • The old Angelus magazines should contain the startup story of at least a few chapels.
    Attached a PDF of the startup of the SSPX, it's first chapel in the states etc.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why
    « Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 06:58:32 AM »
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  • I know Fr Wathen set up a permanent traditional chapel here in Louisville, Ky, circa 1971.  At the time he was a sacerdos non grata because he was a supporter of Fr. Feeney and said that the New Mass is the Great Sacrilege, which it is.  Early on very few of the priests were willing to say that the New Mass was sacrilegious, and even fewer priests maintained that if you die a non-Catholic you go to hell.  Modernism has done its work and even many of the "traditionalists" are not exempt from what they perceive thy have triumphed over. 
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why
    « Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 06:43:03 PM »
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  • We need to tell these "grandpa" stories to the younger generations, so they understand what Tradition is about, what came before them, what sacrifices had to be made to create the current "almost normal" parishes, especially in the SSPX and other large venues.
    I think many young people take it for granted; they aren't familiar with the recent history that is the 1960's to present. That shouldn't take too long to get up to speed about. You don't have to learn EVERYTHING from the past 60 years -- just the main points, the main events, the main players, and what exactly the Crisis in the Church is. The Ottaviani intervention, what happened at Vatican II, the history of +ABL, etc. Either we teach our kids this stuff, or it will be LOST and we will have Vatican 3 in a few years. Then what? Back to square one.

    Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

    I'd go so far as to say that's basically what happened already in the SSPX.
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    Online St Giles

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    Re: Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why
    « Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 08:46:54 PM »
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  • The old Issues of the Angelus are in available dating back to the 70's. Some random old issues are out of stock, I don't know if it's because of a limited run of all of them, and only certain ones were in demand, or if they are original old stock, or if there are unfavorable articles that they want to edit out before printing those issues, but they have made progress in listing many back issues for sale.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why
    « Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 09:37:01 PM »
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  • The Inquisitors discuss the Traditional Movement, specifically its history, how it has changed over the years, and how fundamental human flaws such as Pride have caused various drama in the Traditional communities.

    https://www.bitchute.com/video/tsq2ISOLFYKY

    I just started listening, and I have to pause it to say thank you. 

    I generally feel quite alone in my experience of the traditional milieu. It seems like a big social club from which I am perpetually excluded. Not any more. You are validating 25 years of my own perceptions. It's not just me. Others have experienced it too.  

    Once again, thank you. You do my soul much good. 


    Online Seraphina

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    Re: Divisions within Tradition - the how and the why
    « Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 10:20:30 PM »
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  • I just started listening, and I have to pause it to say thank you.

    I generally feel quite alone in my experience of the traditional milieu. It seems like a big social club from which I am perpetually excluded. Not any more. You are validating 25 years of my own perceptions. It's not just me. Others have experienced it too. 

    Once again, thank you. You do my soul much good.
    I second that. My policy when visiting chapels or having the opportunity to hear Mass, is “Don’t ask; don’t tell.” I’m there to worship God, not for the opinions and judgments of others.  So far as places I won’t go, they consist of the novus ordo, the totally off the rails, ie. Palmerians, believers in some obscure seer, don’t know if the priest is a priest, priest is an infamous pedo, fag got, sex fiend, the parishioners and/or priest clearly do not want me there, or I’m subjected to the tradcat version of the third degree (beyond reasonable questions by a priest) not some self-appointed nosy lady or obnoxious man.