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Poll

Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?

Martin Luther remained a Catholic till his bitter end, per Stubborn?
1 (3.1%)
Martin Luther was a non Catholic when he manifested his heresy publicly?
21 (65.6%)
Martin Luther was still a Catholic until the time he was excommunicated by name in 1521 and then ceased being a Catholic at that time?
4 (12.5%)
I’m not sure.
6 (18.8%)

Total Members Voted: 32

Author Topic: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?  (Read 7154 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
« Reply #90 on: October 06, 2024, 07:57:02 AM »
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  • So what if the priest can lift (some) excommunications?  That actually goes against your point, where the priest needs to life the excommunication before giving absolution.  Some excommunications a priest cannot lift, but here he's lifting any that are in place that he can lift (based on Church law or being giving the authority by superiors who can confer it).  If the individual could merely go to Confession, there would be no need for this at all.  This clearly suggests that one cannot validly receive absolution while in a state of excommunication, so you're shooting yourself in the face here.
    What an odd mentality that so effectively blocks all Catholic common sense in this matter.

    No, what it clearly suggests is that one who is excommunicated can still go to confession, which is something non-Catholics cannot do. If the priest is able (and willing) to remove the particular censure, he will remove the censure then he will absolve the penitent of his sins, in that order.

    If the priest is unable to remove the particular censure, he will let the penitent know he is unable, and presumably let the penitent know who it is that can remove the censure.  

    Again, the whole point is that "excommunication" does not mean expulsion from the Church.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #91 on: October 06, 2024, 11:41:08 AM »
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  • Quote
    Again, the whole point is that "excommunication" does not mean expulsion from the Church.
    :facepalm:  No one has said it does.  You're arguing against a point that nobody is making.  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #92 on: October 06, 2024, 03:41:34 PM »
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  • Again, the whole point is that "excommunication" does not mean expulsion from the Church.

    Says you.  According to St. Robert Bellarine, excommunication severs from membership in the Church.

    In any case, there' a Venn diagram overlap between excommunication and heresy/schism, as one can be excommunicated for reasons other than heresy/schism (e.g. gravely immoral activities).

    As I've pointed out before, you're seriously lacking in basic logic skills.  Someone who remains in a state of heresy/schism cannot be forgiven the Sacrament of Confession.  According to your absurd reasoning, someone who was baptized Catholic but then by the age of reason was being raised as, say, a schismatic or Protestant, can just go to Confession to a priest and be absolved ... without first having returned to a public profession of the faith (i.e. to Catholicism).  If the individual is eligible to go to Confession and be absolved, it's predicated upon the idea that he's repented of his heresy/schism first and has returned to membership in the Church.  Absent that condition, he may most certainly NOT just be forgiven in Confession, nor is a priest permitted to absolve such an individual (it would be a sacrilege).  If his rupture with the Church were notorious, he's have to first make a public abjuration (except in danger of death).  Otherwise, simply resuming the profession of the Catholic Church as the true Church and rejecting the profession of heresy suffices to re-establish membership in the Church based upon the criteria set out by St. Robert Bellarmine.

    Can an individual who was baptized Catholic, but then at some point became a schismatic or heretic (e.g. Protestant) simply go to Confession and have his sins forgiven?  Would a priest be allowed to absolve such an individual?  Of course not.  Why?  Because he's no longer a Catholic.  Now, as soon as he renounces his heresy and/or schism (provided there's no other obstacle remaining), then AT THAT TIME he'd be able to go to Confession.

    You get hung up on these mental obsessions and stupidities.

    Unfortunately, Stubborn, you are a heretic and schismatic ... having professed an ecclesiology that is 100% Old Catholic.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #93 on: October 06, 2024, 04:08:01 PM »
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  • Says you.  According to St. Robert Bellarine, excommunication severs from membership in the Church.

    In any case, there' a Venn diagram overlap between excommunication and heresy/schism, as one can be excommunicated for reasons other than heresy/schism (e.g. gravely immoral activities).

    As I've pointed out before, you're seriously lacking in basic logic skills.  Someone who remains in a state of heresy/schism cannot be forgiven the Sacrament of Confession.  According to your absurd reasoning, someone who was baptized Catholic but then by the age of reason was being raised as, say, a schismatic or Protestant, can just go to Confession to a priest and be absolved ... without first having returned to a public profession of the faith (i.e. to Catholicism).  If the individual is eligible to go to Confession and be absolved, it's predicated upon the idea that he's repented of his heresy/schism first and has returned to membership in the Church.  Absent that condition, he may most certainly NOT just be forgiven in Confession, nor is a priest permitted to absolve such an individual (it would be a sacrilege).  If his rupture with the Church were notorious, he's have to first make a public abjuration (except in danger of death).  Otherwise, simply resuming the profession of the Catholic Church as the true Church and rejecting the profession of heresy suffices to re-establish membership in the Church based upon the criteria set out by St. Robert Bellarmine.

    Can an individual who was baptized Catholic, but then at some point became a schismatic or heretic (e.g. Protestant) simply go to Confession and have his sins forgiven?  Would a priest be allowed to absolve such an individual?  Of course not.  Why?  Because he's no longer a Catholic.  Now, as soon as he renounces his heresy and/or schism (provided there's no other obstacle remaining), then AT THAT TIME he'd be able to go to Confession.

    You get hung up on these mental obsessions and stupidities.

    Unfortunately, Stubborn, you are a heretic and schismatic ... having professed an ecclesiology that is 100% Old Catholic.


    Excellent post!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #94 on: October 07, 2024, 05:02:53 AM »
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  • Says you.  According to St. Robert Bellarine, excommunication severs from membership in the Church.

    A) In any case, there' a Venn diagram overlap between excommunication and heresy/schism, as one can be excommunicated for reasons other than heresy/schism (e.g. gravely immoral activities).

    B) As I've pointed out before, you're seriously lacking in basic logic skills.  Someone who remains in a state of heresy/schism cannot be forgiven the Sacrament of Confession.  According to your absurd reasoning, someone who was baptized Catholic but then by the age of reason was being raised as, say, a schismatic or Protestant, can just go to Confession to a priest and be absolved ... without first having returned to a public profession of the faith (i.e. to Catholicism).  If the individual is eligible to go to Confession and be absolved, it's predicated upon the idea that he's repented of his heresy/schism first and has returned to membership in the Church.  Absent that condition, he may most certainly NOT just be forgiven in Confession, nor is a priest permitted to absolve such an individual (it would be a sacrilege).  If his rupture with the Church were notorious, he's have to first make a public abjuration (except in danger of death).  Otherwise, simply resuming the profession of the Catholic Church as the true Church and rejecting the profession of heresy suffices to re-establish membership in the Church based upon the criteria set out by St. Robert Bellarmine.

    Can an individual who was baptized Catholic, but then at some point became a schismatic or heretic (e.g. Protestant) simply go to Confession and have his sins forgiven?  Would a priest be allowed to absolve such an individual?  Of course not.  Why?  Because he's no longer a Catholic.  Now, as soon as he renounces his heresy and/or schism (provided there's no other obstacle remaining), then AT THAT TIME he'd be able to go to Confession.

    You get hung up on these mental obsessions and stupidities.

    Unfortunately, Stubborn, you are a heretic and schismatic ... having professed an ecclesiology that is 100% Old Catholic.
    Man, the sedes on this thread are a dense bunch. It is apparent you are blind to words written. Pretty amazing, not sure why but I continue to find it a bit fascinating. 
    A) This, as I said, is why the priest says "as far as I am able." I explained this to you so you have no excuse for not understanding other than your own blind stupidity.
    B) You've blinded yourself to the fact that each time I used the words "penitent heretic" and "repentant heretic." But at least you got that blabbering batch of BS out of your system again, for now. 

    Listen to the attached, Fred spells out quite nicely in only a few short minutes the Catholic principle involved.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse