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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: SeanJohnson on May 15, 2022, 08:15:46 AM

Title: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 15, 2022, 08:15:46 AM
Now this is a new breed of cat:

Indultarian group receives ordination against will of local bishop, then gets suspended:

https://gloria.tv/post/sqxRADTvQ6KY2UKEPacN66QYQ

It will be interesting to see if this new dynamic causes them to become more traditional.

If this prototype became a trend, it would spell the death of the conciliar church (eg., Just imagine if the Franciscan Friars suppressed and disbanded by Francis had, instead of complying, turned to Bishop Williamson).




Bishop Refuses Roman Ordinations, Monastery Finds Solution

(https://assistant.gloria.tv/FxK6pqhk7ZiS1AZwTDoBU6KMY/2bc6c2iu8ria5ska8eizf0nzy00pkybhc8cldml.webp?scale=256)

The English-speaking monastery [color=var(--link-fg, #1a73e8)]Saint Benoit in Brignoles (https://gloria.tv/post/QrtMFVWFxsmK43LQZrUA8np3B)[/iurl], France, organised in April at a discrete location outside France "unauthorised" Roman Rite ordinations celebrated by a “senior prelate in unimpeded communion with the Holy See.”

The prelate ordained founding Prior Alcuin Reid who has been a deacon for several years to the priesthood and another monk to the diaconate. Saint Benoit in Brignoles is only a diocesan association of the faithful.

The Australian born prior is a liturgical scholar. His 2005 book The Organic Development of the Liturgy carries a preface by Cardinal Ratzinger.

The monastery depended not always successfully on diocesan priests for the celebration of Mass. Three visitators recommended to ordain a monk, recently in December.

However, Fréjus-Toulon Bishop Dominique Rey, a good man, was unwilling to proceed with the ordinations. What Rey called “prudence” the monastery calls fear of repercussions increased by a recent apostolic visitation of the diocesan seminary. In January, Rey confirmed that he wouldn't proceed with ordinations.

The monastery justified the ordinations with the Church's extraordinary situation. Rey has "suspended" those ordained.

#newsJspowwjcgd (https://gloria.tv/hashtag/newsJspowwjcgd)


(https://assistant.gloria.tv/FxK6pqhk7ZiS1AZwTDoBU6KMY/xyx7xkosec1vn56yp33k3cy2eadb8f02xwowg2v.webp?crop=750.464.0.7&scale=512)

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Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 15, 2022, 08:35:41 AM
I cannot recall a case where a diocesan bishop refused ordinations, and then the community in question clandestinely seeks and receives ordinations by another conciliar bishop.

Into whose diocese was he incardinated?  And if he was incardinated into the clandestine bishop’s diocese, of what value and legal force is Bishop Rey’s suspension?  And if more conservative priestly candidates will simply shop for sympathetic bishops to ordain them (and those bishops start accepting these requests), how will the conciliar deep church survive?

Prediction: The clandestine bishop will be censured to send a message that this “work-around” will not be tolerated.
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: SimpleMan on May 15, 2022, 09:46:48 AM
Got to wonder, precisely what canon law was violated here?

Here's the situation:

Seminarian prepares to be called for ordination by Bishop A.
Bishop A refuses to ordain him.
Bishop B is willing to ordain him instead.

The only problem I see here, is that Bishop B is basically getting a priest without having had to pay the costs of educating him all those years, so as a matter of justice, Bishop B might have to write Bishop A a check.  Aside from that, it is hard to see a problem here.

To stretch the scenario a bit further, let's say that a seminarian gets pretty much all the way through his education and training.  His bishop refuses to ordain him and basically kicks him out.  The now-ex-seminarian returns to secular life.  Then, at some later date, he finds a bishop who is happy to have him.  That bishop ordains him.  It's hard to see how the refusing bishop would have been done any more of an injustice than the seminarian was done by having ordination refused in the first place.
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 15, 2022, 09:55:39 AM
Got to wonder, precisely what canon law was violated here?

Here's the situation:

Seminarian prepares to be called for ordination by Bishop A.
Bishop A refuses to ordain him.
Bishop B is willing to ordain him instead.

The only problem I see here, is that Bishop B is basically getting a priest without having had to pay the costs of educating him all those years, so as a matter of justice, Bishop B might have to write Bishop A a check.  Aside from that, it is hard to see a problem here.

To stretch the scenario a bit further, let's say that a seminarian gets pretty much all the way through his education and training.  His bishop refuses to ordain him and basically kicks him out.  The now-ex-seminarian returns to secular life.  Then, at some later date, he finds a bishop who is happy to have him.  That bishop ordains him.  It's hard to see how the refusing bishop would have been done any more of an injustice than the seminarian was done by having ordination refused in the first place.

The issue is that one bishop is ordaining priests to operate in another bishop’s diocese against his will (regardless of who’s diocese he’s incardinated into).
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: epiphany on May 15, 2022, 11:00:26 AM
Hopefully they find tradition, but hopefully they aren't pervs.
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: Ladislaus on May 15, 2022, 11:10:48 AM
It would be interesting to find out who this bishop was.
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: bodeens on May 15, 2022, 11:57:58 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if we see more independent (both financially and politically from the diocesan structure) monasteries as time goes on that secure their own priests and have +Thuc or +ABL line doing ordinations for them. I think this is probably going to be the way forward for many who have convents/monasteries closed for not vaccinating, being "rigid" or whatever. What Bishop would risk this within the VII structure? Seems interesting.
I really don't think any kind of canon law was broken but rather the Bishop's ego was violated and a crackdown was in order. 
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 15, 2022, 12:20:37 PM
I really don't think any kind of canon law was broken but rather the Bishop's ego was violated and a crackdown was in order.

Depending on circuмstances, this one could be relevant:

Can. 390 A diocesan bishop can perform pontifical functions in his entire diocese but not outside his own diocese without the express, or at least reasonably presumed, consent of the local ordinary.

These canons would also seemingly be violated:

Can. 1015 §1. Each person is to be ordained to the presbyterate or the diaconate by his proper bishop or with legitimate dimissorial letters from him.

§2. If not impeded by a just cause, the proper bishop is to ordain his own subjects personally; without an apostolic indult, however, he cannot ordain licitly a subject of an Eastern rite.

Can. 1016 As regards the diaconal ordination of those who intend to be enrolled in the secular clergy, the proper bishop is the bishop of the diocese in which the candidate has a domicile or the bishop of the diocese to which the candidate is determined to devote himself. As regards the presbyteral ordination of secular clerics, it is the bishop of the diocese in which the candidate was incardinated through the diaconate.

Can. 1017 A bishop cannot confer orders outside his own jurisdiction without the permission of the diocesan bishop.

There are probably others.
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: Shrewd Operator on May 15, 2022, 01:39:40 PM
Notice how they evoked the emergency powers to counter the cannons. I wonder if the ordaining bishop will offer that same defense.

Can you imagine if +Viganno was the ordaining bishop, it would be +ABL all over again.

I bet bishop Rey wishes he had done it the easy way now.
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 15, 2022, 02:19:58 PM
Can you imagine if +Viganno was the ordaining bishop, it would be +ABL all over again.

Agreed: If it was Vigano, that would probably be something Francis could not afford to ignore, lest his silence be taken for tacit approval (thereby making repeat performances all the more probable).
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: Matthew on May 15, 2022, 02:25:57 PM
Notice how they evoked the emergency powers to counter the cannons. 

Sounds very war-like. Countering the cannons!

I think you mean canons...
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: SimpleMan on May 15, 2022, 09:22:41 PM
The issue is that one bishop is ordaining priests to operate in another bishop’s diocese against his will (regardless of who’s diocese he’s incardinated into).
The way I was reading it ("reading into it" would probably be more like it), it looked like the priest would be subject to the ordaining bishop, would be incardinated to him, and would serve in his diocese instead of the one in which he was rejected.

What am I missing here?
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: Nadir on May 16, 2022, 06:08:06 AM
Communique
14.5.2022

In the course of a dialogue with our Bishop, Msgr Dominique Rey—a meeting had been arranged for ten days’ time and a telephone conversation was promised for this week—the Chancellor of our diocese has today sent out to clergy an inflammatory statement which is creating confusion, if not scandal, to which we must respond.

We wish to state at the outset that we have sought to avoid publicity and scandal and to act discretely and to have private conversations with our bishop in order to move forward with him. In the light of this the Chancellor’s statement—which contains canonical and factual inaccuracies and falsehoods, possibly due to a misreading of English texts—is precipitous and for that reason alone it is more than regrettable.

Our monastic community has been frustrated in recent years by our Bishop’s unwillingness or inability to proceed with the ordinations that it has long since needed, despite these having been recommended by no fewer than three monastic visitators, the most recent in December 2021, out of a so-called “prudence”—though it has become increasingly clear that this “prudence” is based on fear of repercussions, a fear increased by the Holy See’s recent visitation of the diocesan seminary. Bishop Rey has often confirmed that this “prudence” is not based on any substantial doubt about the idoneity of any candidate, the need of the monastery for ordinations, or about the good that they would bring.

We wish to say that we understand many of the pressures on Bishop Rey and that his judgement in these questions is not a positive will on his part to inflict suffering upon us, or a wish to act unjustly. Even if an injustice results from his feeling trapped and unable to proceed because of outside factors, his good will and paternity have been a blessing for which we thank Almighty God.

The measures enacted in the last year by the Holy See in respect of the usus antiquior, most particularly the December 2021 responses of Archbishop Roche, have exacerbated this situation. The blanket ban on ordinations has put us, our vocations and our candidates in an impossible position. The integrity of our observance, liturgical and monastic, is gravely compromised. That which one Successor of Peter assured us to be true is contradicted by another. The content of the vows we have taken before God has been radically altered. This situation is itself a scandal and is untenable.

In January Msgr Rey informed us that he could not proceed with the ordinations recommended in the Visitation report from last December. We consulted with friends, including respected senior prelates, regarding our seemingly impossible situation. In our conversations we stressed our respect for the Bishop and our understanding of his position, as well as our predicament. The Prior made a pilgrimage to pray at the tomb of St Peter on the feast of His Chair for unity in the Church. One senior prelate offered to confer ordinations if the Bishop Rey remained unable to do so. We were taken aback by this offer: no request for ordinations was made of anyone.

Our Prior met with Bishop Rey once again to see if there was any other way forward. But once again it was clear that he could not envisage ordaining our men. Our frustration at this situation has developed into a substantial and grave fear. What if the Holy See removes the Bishop? What if the Holy See suppresses us along with other traditional communities that are ‘only’ Associations of the Faithful? Without a priest we could not even hope to weather the storm whilst waiting for better days. What if the diocesan priests due to supply Mass here cannot come—we would be without Mass, as we have been previously.

We carried all of these concerns with us into the depths of Lent. We studied them and prayed much about them. We placed them under the patronage of our Holy Father Saint Benedict, on whose feast day we decided to accept the offer made to us by the senior prelate, regarding it as a call to Orders justly made by a faithful successor of the apostles in truly exceptional circuмstances.
We took this decision in good conscience before Almighty God, knowing that it would appear to involve material disobedience, but with the conviction that it was for the ultimate good of souls in a truly extraordinary situation in the life of the Church, fearing that if we did not accept this Providential opportunity our own vocations, and those of the young men who wish to come to us, would be jeopardised, if not lost. We have experienced a great peace in respect of this decision.

Therefore, in April, the aforementioned senior prelate in unimpeded communion with the Holy See ordained one of our men to the Subdiaconate and to the Diaconate on successive days, and ordained our Prior to the Priesthood according to the usus antiquior of the Roman rite in a discrete location not in France. No stipend was requested or offered, given or accepted, in respect of them. The ordinations were preceded by the necessary oaths and were been duly certified and witnessed. We will not reveal the name of the ordaining prelate.

The penalty incurred according to canon 1388 § 1—if it had in fact even been incurred, given the provisions of canon 1323—was remitted in accordance with canon 1355 § 2. [nb. numeration of the Code as of December 2021]

Upon our return we wrote to Bishop Rey to inform him and to ask to meet and consider how we are to move forward. We are resolved to remain faithful to our vows on our property in Brignoles no matter what transpires. That is our duty and our vocation before God. We have acted in good faith, even if because of necessity outside the canonical norms, and in spite of all we wish to remain in good relations and communion with our Bishop, his successors and the diocese.

We stated to Bishop Rey that if he judged that we must be publicly sanctioned, we will remain here and live our vows faithfully and wait for better times, much as did Dom Gerard when he was sanctioned in 1974 for having a bishop confer minor orders on the monks of his nascent monastery. Fifteen years later he was blessed as the first Abbot of Le Barroux.

For the sake of discretion, and to leave the Bishop free to decide how to proceed, we have kept the fact of the ordinations secret and have not exercised public ministry. But we have also said, in begging the bishop to avoid scandal, to provide priests for Mass. Before Almighty God we cannot allow the monastery to be deprived of Holy Mass or the sacraments again.

We have asked for and have received the promise of private conversations only to have them subsequently refused. We have received peremptory demands prepared by the Chancellor that strike a very different tone to the messages sent by the bishop. We have been told of unacceptable indiscretions in respect of us by the Chancellor. And finally we have received a “declaration” of a suspension of the orders received, which suspension has already been duly canonically remitted.

The Chancellor’s statement today, passed on to us third hand, contains matters that have not been communicated to us—as well as gross inaccuracies. We cannot think that Bishop Rey knowingly authorised these.
We remain hopeful that dialogue and reconciliation are possible. That is our fervent hope and prayer.

We apologise to any who may find this situation distressing, as indeed do we, and beg the understanding of all that before all else we must remain faithful to our vocation of a traditional Benedictine life of prayer and work, ratified and blessed by our Bishop in our foundational statutes and constitutions, and to our vows, taken before Almighty God according to them. We have lived thus for more than ten years now and pray to God we may do so for many more in fruitful communion with him.

It should be noted that any who may wish to use this as an occasion to make ad hominem attacks on any of the monks should know that on no occasion has the bishop had any cause to censure them in respect of faith or morals. In respect of the Prior, whom Bishop Rey invited to the diocese and incardinated in June 2009 following all due consultation and necessary processes, it is to be underlined that the bishop judged him idoneus to be superior of the monastery as recently as at the renewal of its statutes in January 2022. All other monks have been admitted and formed according to the correct processes—indeed stricter ones than those in place in other communities in the diocese.

We entrust the monastery and our vocations to the Blessed Virgin of Fatima, offering whatever sufferings we must endure for the reparation of our sins, for the liberty and unity of the Church, for our diocese and for Bishop Rey.


http://www.monasterebrignoles.org/news/statement-communique









Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 16, 2022, 06:41:12 AM
Interesting that remission of the suspension is alleged under Can. 1355 (2).  Never thought of that before.

Even more interesting would be the “senior prelate’s” account of why he felt justified in proceeding with the ordinations.

:popcorn:
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: Zeusantony on May 16, 2022, 09:09:14 AM
There is I think the matter of this curious community under the prior Alcuin Reed who has got himself ordained a priest in dubious circuмstances  The history of this man is well worth investigating. All of it rather strange. Where does his self-title of 'Dom' come from.
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: Zeusantony on May 16, 2022, 09:12:30 AM

 I was incorrect in the spelling of his name.  It is Alcuin Reid. Apologies
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: Nadir on May 16, 2022, 07:08:26 PM
There is I think the matter of this curious community under the prior Alcuin Reed who has got himself ordained a priest in dubious circuмstances  The history of this man is well worth investigating. All of it rather strange. Where does his self-title of 'Dom' come from.
I was incorrect in the spelling of his name.  It is Alcuin Reid. Apologies
There’s oodles on him on the www. He is Dom because he is prior of a Benedictine monastery.

Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: beevbovebiv on May 17, 2022, 03:29:17 AM

The only problem I see here, is that Bishop B is basically getting a priest without having had to pay the costs of educating him all those years, so as a matter of justice, Bishop B might have to write Bishop A a check.  Aside from that, it is hard to see a problem here.
That's strange, years ago my brother talked to someone in the local diocese about becoming a priest, and he was told the church doesn't pay any tuition.
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: Nadir on May 17, 2022, 06:18:56 AM
That's strange, years ago my brother talked to someone in the local diocese about becoming a priest, and he was told the church doesn't pay any tuition.
It would depend on which diocese he belongs to, on the aspirant, on his or his family’s ability to pay, on whether or not he is called to join a religious community or a diocese. 

The person referred to in this thread has a lifetime of study behind him, some of which was probably self funded. He is a theologian, studied in Melbourne and London and even has an entry in Wikipedia.
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian
Post by: Zeusantony on May 17, 2022, 06:55:00 AM
NADIR  Yes he is the self styled prior of his self-founded monastery and was not then in priest's orders. How this has any connection to the Benedictine Rule I fail to see. This community is said to be Englsh speaking but I do not know that this runs to the liturgy This whole history arose when Archbishop Pell begged him to accept laicisation from the diaconate.  This was because of suspected sɛҳuąƖ misbehaviour when he was a deacon working in the Melbourne Diocese in the 1980's and 1990's. He was refused ordination to the priesthood several times until this strange event in France.  His existence has been peripetitic including time at Farnborough Abbey where be gave himself the title 'Dom'. Much else about him is unusual to say the least. I learn he was also styled as 'Dr Scott'
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: SimpleMan on May 17, 2022, 09:20:26 AM
That's strange, years ago my brother talked to someone in the local diocese about becoming a priest, and he was told the church doesn't pay any tuition.

I was referring to the fact that all of that money had been spent on the seminarian's education by Bishop A, and now you have Bishop B getting a fully-educated new priest for free.  (Crude verbiage, perhaps, but you get the idea.)

Nonetheless, if Bishop A just threw the seminarian out, then that's on Bishop A.  You can't demand that someone return an education, nor can you suck the knowledge and spiritual formation out of their mind and soul.  If Bishop A rejected a seminarian whom Bishop B found acceptable, then that's Bishop A's loss and a "win-win" for both Bishop B and the new priest.
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: PositaSecuris on May 17, 2022, 11:59:35 AM
It never fails to amaze how some ignore many easily verifiable facts -- renowned scholarly work in favor of tradition (some prefaced by a scholarly cardinal in favor of tradition who would be elected pope), international conferences attended by other high ranking prelates and luminaries in favor of tradition, invitation and incardination by a bishop well known for favoring tradition, the title Dom used by figures such as Dom Gueranger, Dom Gerard, Dom Antoine Forgeot, Dom Philip Anderson, and many others, canonical statutes duly approved by the local ordinary and renewed as recently as earlier this year -- but affirm as true obscure, undocuмented, unsupported, malicious, anonymous internet rumors that contradict many of the easily verifiable facts, such as His Eminence, Cardinal Pell (himself the target of vicious false accusations) scheduled to speak at the Sacra Liturgia Conference in San Francisco this summer, at which Dom Alcuin will give opening remarks. The spelling of names is the least of your many errors.
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian
Post by: Nadir on May 17, 2022, 04:17:46 PM
NADIR  Yes he is the self styled prior of his self-founded monastery and was not then in priest's orders. How this has any connection to the Benedictine Rule I fail to see. This community is said to be Englsh speaking but I do not know that this runs to the liturgy This whole history arose when Archbishop Pell begged him to accept laicisation from the diaconate.  This was because of suspected sɛҳuąƖ misbehaviour when he was a deacon working in the Melbourne Diocese in the 1980's and 1990's. He was refused ordination to the priesthood several times until this strange event in France.  His existence has been peripatetic including time at Farnborough Abbey where be gave himself the title 'Dom'. Much else about him is unusual to say the least. I learn he was also styled as 'Dr Scott'
This community is a diocesan association of the faithful. Every community starts out when one person gets together a group of like minds and spirits. How do you think new communities arise? They are not self founded nor does God come down from heaven to rubberstamp them. 

Has it crossed your mind that Scott could be his baptismal name, and Alcuin his name in religion?
Unsubstantiated accusation of "suspected sɛҳuąƖ misbehaviour" is par for the course in situations like this. 
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 21, 2022, 10:35:07 AM
More developments:

Bishop Rey "Dissolves" Roman Rite Benedictines


(https://assistant.gloria.tv/FxK6pqhk7ZiS1AZwTDoBU6KMY/w4huxgegvqvhdcz7n7p39cs1gck4hd4og2oqf4x.webp?scale=256)

Fréjus-Toulon Bishop Dominique Rey, France, has "dissolved" a small community of Roman Rite Benedictines in Brignoles on June 10.

Canonically, the monastery was an “association of the faithful.” In April, its superior, Father Alcuin Reid, was [color=var(--link-fg, #1a73e8)]ordained (https://gloria.tv/post/sqxRADTvQ6KY2UKEPacN66QYQ)
[/iurl] a priest without Rey's permission outside France by an unnamed bishop in communion with Rome.

The diocese explained that Reid had refused to meet Bishop Rey and didn’t disclose the name of the ordaining bishop despite several requests. Rey has previously celebrated at the monastery and had maintained good contacts with Reid for years.

#newsJjkpnpcoje (https://gloria.tv/hashtag/newsJjkpnpcoje)


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Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: songbird on June 21, 2022, 11:56:27 AM
Holy orders are not valid in dioceses. You know, it is new order.
Title: Re: Disobedient Indultarian Ordained
Post by: Mark 79 on June 22, 2022, 10:38:49 PM
Holy orders are not valid in dioceses. You know, it is new order.
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