Author Topic: Vestments and Liturgy Cant Supply for Intellectual Defects (Read 4539 times)

Santo Subito · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2011, 04:54:14 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

Is Sunday considered a feast day or are you merely extrapolating the law? According to the calculation of time, both canonically and liturgically, the day begins at midnight. Attending Mass on Saturday is a de facto transfer of the Holy Day, yet there is no provision in law stating that this has occurred.

The Society confirms the canon in question applies to Sunday and that the Church has the right to make Masses on Saturday evening count for Sunday.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #16 on:** June 19, 2011, 05:04:35 PM »

Well, atleast Santo is quoting the SSPX now. Let's hope that leads to something...

Caminus · « **Reply #17 on:** June 19, 2011, 07:57:02 PM »

Quote from: Santo Subito

Quote from: Caminus
Is Sunday considered a feast day or are you merely extrapolating the law? According to the calculation of time, both canonically and liturgically, the day begins at midnight. Attending Mass on Saturday is a de facto transfer of the Holy Day, yet there is no provision in law stating that this has occurred.

The Society confirms the canon in question applies to Sunday and that the Church has the right to make Masses on Saturday evening count for Sunday.

I don't dispute that the Church has the authority to change the day, that is the common opinion of theologians; what I dispute, and I'm sure Fr. Scott, among others would agree, is that the immediate context of the canon in question pertains to Feast Days and not every single Sunday of the year. Aside from the absurdity of having a "vigil" Mass for every Sunday, even if I granted that the law could be applied in the case of Sunday, you would still have to surmount the problem of interpreting the law as an exception and not the rule. Indeed, considering there has been no formal change of days (you have not cited the decree) the interpretation of the canon in question should be dictated by traditional jurisprudence.

In this case, the true sense of the canon would envisage a justifying excuse to attend Mass on Saturday to fulfill the obligation of Sunday, an entirely different day. Consequently to understand the law as if it applied equally without distinction, without any need of a justifying cause, to Saturday as well as Sunday and thus a matter of mere preference, is erroneous. For that would imply a de facto change from Sunday to Saturday (per the calculation of time) and the law nowhere indicates that this is the intention of the lawgiver. Thus the only rational interpretation of the canon is that it applies to those who have a justifying excuse to miss Mass on Sunday, but can attend on Saturday. The extension of which is an attempt at being equitable no doubt, but nevertheless, an exception to the rule always requires a justifying cause.

The fact that it is a badly worded canon would certainly excuse many from mortal sin. But in the case of Bishops and priests, they are undoubtedly committing sin by leading people astray in this matter. For as a matter of fact, every single Catholic now believes that going to Mass on Saturday fulfills ones obligation equally well as attending on Sunday. This is certainly erroneous. Until such a time when the Church formally changes the day, it must be considered erroneous.

Santo Subito · « **Reply #18 on:** June 19, 2011, 09:30:03 PM »

But Fr. Scott admits the Canon applies to Sundays in the quote I provided above.

Quote

The novelty came with the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which permitted the faithful to satisfy their obligation of assisting at Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day either on the day itself or the afternoon or evening beforehand (canon 1248, §1).

Caminus · « **Reply #19 on:** June 19, 2011, 10:02:10 PM »

Quote from: Santo Subito

But Fr. Scott admits the Canon applies to Sundays in the quote I provided above.

Quote
The novelty came with the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which permitted the faithful to satisfy their obligation of assisting at Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day either on the day itself or the afternoon or evening beforehand (canon 1248, §1).

And I'm certain that if he would have examined the matter more closely, as opposed to writing a short paragraph on the question, he would have also pointed out what I have stated above. Or he may have been speaking as a matter of fact as what is actually occurring in the Novus Ordo while not providing his own commentary on the meaning and import of the canon itself. Either way, I believe my statement above is cogent and sound. Either way you cut the pie, Catholics attending Mass on Saturday as a matter of preference or indifference, being deceived in the matter, is an evil custom that has developed in recent times. I don't think any reasonable man could differ with me on that. And the fact that you have offered no rebutal seems to indicate you have nothing further to add. Thus it stands, Fr. "Z's" statement in the OP is seriously misleading on this point as well as others.

TKGS · « **Reply #20 on:** June 20, 2011, 12:55:04 PM »

Quote from: Santo Subito

"Keep holy the Lord's Day" is a commandment. Separate from that is the Church's law that one must assist at Mass on Sunday. The Church can alter this law as She sees fit. Thus allowing the Sunday Mass to be said on Saturday evening, out of generosity to the faithful, is completely within Her purview is it not?

No. The Church cannot make law that is contrary to God's law. It would be like the Church making an eighth sacrament (wait...I forgot...the conciliar church already did that), or a law making condom use morally acceptable (oops, it's not quite been put in writing yet, but Benedict's quote has already reached a worldwide audience), or authorizing divorce with a right to remarry (What?!)

It seems that the conciliar church has been making changes to the unchangeable moral laws of God for years.

Back to the specific question at hand: The Church cannot make a law contrary to God's law. Keeping the Lord's Day, i.e., Sunday, holy is God's law. No authority on earth can change that. The Church can change feast days at will. The Church can make any day of the year outside Sunay a Holy Day of Obligation and prescribe when and how those obligations can be fulfilled. If the Church wanted to allow Christmas day an obligation that can be fulfilled by attending Mass on July 25th, the Church could do so (though I suggest the True Church would never do so). This is entirely a man-made law subject to the whim of men. Sundays, however, are not man-made and keeping that day holy is not simply a disciplinary issue.

By the way, even attendance at Mass on Sunday is not so obligatory so as to bind the conscience when one does not have a Sunday Mass available to him. On the other hand, if one was in a location hundreds of miles from a Catholic Mass, one would not, by that reason, have permission to simply treat Sunday as just another day or sleep in, catch the football game, and get drunk. He must still "keep that day holy" in some meaningful way. The Society recommends praying the 15 decade Rosary and reading the Mass Propers of the Day.

By the way, the habit of celebrating the Novus Ordo the day before the Lord's Day and Holy Days began years before the 1983 code. The practice itself was born out of laziness and disobedience.

Caminus · « **Reply #21 on:** June 20, 2011, 07:28:14 PM »

Santo, are TKGS and myself making any sense to you?

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #22 on:** June 20, 2011, 09:19:24 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

Santo, are TKGS and myself making any sense to you?

He usually doesn't respond when someone blows him out of the water so don't expect a response.

He normally only posts on weekends anyway.

Santo Subito · « **Reply #23 on:** June 21, 2011, 09:21:34 PM »

TKGS,

You seem to be, in part, making the same point I did. God's law, the ten commandments, say to keep holy the Lord's day. The Church has made this day Sunday in light of the Resurrection, transferred from the Sabbath which is Saturday.

So, indeed, we are required to keep Sunday holy. This is the divine law. However, the Sunday Mass obligation is Church made law. The Society article points this out. The Church obliges us to assist at Mass on Sunday under pain of mortal sin in order to assist us in making Sunday holy, but this is still a Church made obligation.

Thus, since the Church controlls the Mass obligation, it also has the power to declare that Masses at certain times on Saturday evening fulfill this obligation. This is separate and distinct from our obligation as Catholics to keep Sunday holy. I believe it comes from the ancient practice of counting sundown as the beginning of the next day.

I hope I've explained my position so that it is more understandable, even if you disagree. I believe one can fully disagree with the Church's prudential decision to allow Saturday evening Masses to fulfill the Sunday obligation and petition for Her to change the rule back to what it was. That said, I do not believe a Catholic can say that Saturday evening Masses do not fulfill the obligation or are somehow sinful. This would be usurping the authority of the Church in matters clearly under her jurisdiction. I believe even the Society article takes this position.

I believe the Church allows the Saturday evening Mass to count for the Sunday obligation out of generosity. There is a St. Josemaria video where he speaks of this. I will try to find it for you.

God bless.

TKGS · « **Reply #24 on:** June 21, 2011, 11:33:17 PM »

Remember that attendance at Mass is what the Church declares is the minimum requirement for keeping the Lord's Day Holy. If you do nothing else on Sunday but attend Holy Mass, not even God will condemn you in any way. On the other hand, if you go to Mass on Saturday, you may have complied with man-made church law, but you have not done the minimum to comply with the Law of God and if you treat Sunday as just another day (because you have complied with the man-made law), God will not be appeased.

It is not a "generosity" of the Church to tell souls that they are keeping Sunday holy by keeping Saturday holy. In fact, it is another piece of evidence that the church that made such a law is not the Catholic Church.

You saw a......St. Josemaria (?) video? Isn't he the founder of Opus Dei and the patron saint of Modernists?

Raoul76 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 22, 2011, 04:33:58 AM »

A couple days ago I read in Wikipedia that JPII "canonized" more saints than five centuries of ( true ) Popes before him PUT TOGETHER. I actually laughed when I read this, though that may not have been the most distinguished reaction. It's just so absurd, it's like something from The Onion. How can anyone believe this guy was a true Pope? It's a complete joke.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #26 on:** June 22, 2011, 04:08:48 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

A couple days ago I read in Wikipedia that JPII "canonized" more saints than five centuries of ( true ) Popes before him PUT TOGETHER. I actually laughed when I read this, though that may not have been the most distinguished reaction. It's just so absurd, it's like something from The Onion. How can anyone believe this guy was a true Pope? It's a complete joke.

I myself am having a hard time believing he was a true Pope. For now though, I hold him as a bad Pope. We'll see where things go from there.