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Author Topic: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article  (Read 2412 times)

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Offline jerm

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Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
« on: March 07, 2020, 10:25:47 PM »
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  • Here's the article: https://inveritateblog.com/2020/03/07/the-una-cuм-mass/

    It's pretty much a summary of that same set of arguments Bp. Sanborn makes against going to una cuм masses. In my view, this is Sanborn's biggest fault. I don't understand why he takes such a strict stance on it. I have talked to a priest from MHTS and emailed Fr. Cekada, both of whom are anti-una cuм, about going to a sedevacantist priest who doesn't say the Mass una cuм, but agrees that it's okay to do so. Fr. Cekada says that it's fine to receive any sacrament from this priest, whereas MHTS states that you not only shouldn't go to their mass, but you can't even get confession from them.

    That is a completely ridiculous stance, especially because there is no actual precedent for rejecting a valid una cuм-equivalent Mass in the history of the Church pre-Vatican II. Rejecting una cuм so harshly only seems to divide sedevacantists unnecessarily. As Ladislaus showed me, even the Dimonds have no problem with going to an una cuм Mass. Some say they no longer do, but they haven't removed their articles defending it and have stated that they believe they received genuine spiritual graces from doing so.

    This isn't to defend the Dimonds, who I don't fully agree with, but to highlight Sanborn's ridiculously hot take on an issue that shouldn't be much of an issue at all. It comes off as very intellectually dishonest to me. If his perspective was the genuine consensus of those who are against una cuм for following their conscience, I would be fine with that. But Sanborn brings it to such extremes that it comes off as power-grabbing so that more people will go to your seminary. This, especially when Sanborn is very liberal on issues like EENS... 

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #1 on: March 08, 2020, 08:50:55 AM »
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  • Yes this anti "una cuм" (although I understand the reasoning behind it) , is imposing more limitations on people who are struggling just to find valid sacraments. I think it's a sin to bypass legitimate sacraments in an R and R situation or an independent chapel with a valid priest , just because the priest says "una cuм". How does Bishop Sandborn explain that "una cuм" invalidates Sacraments? If it doesn't  then it's a moot point. 


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #2 on: March 08, 2020, 10:13:11 AM »
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  • I have talked to a priest from MHTS and emailed Fr. Cekada, both of whom are anti-una cuм, about going to a sedevacantist priest who doesn't say the Mass una cuм, but agrees that it's okay to do so. Fr. Cekada says that it's fine to receive any sacrament from this priest, whereas MHTS states that you not only shouldn't go to their mass, but you can't even get confession from them.

    Huh?  Can you re-read what you wrote here?  Something doesn't add up for me, and I'm wondering whether something was written incorrectly.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #3 on: March 08, 2020, 10:33:08 AM »
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  • Huh?  Can you re-read what you wrote here?  Something doesn't add up for me, and I'm wondering whether something was written incorrectly.
    I think what he’s saying is that the Sanborn group is now saying that you can’t even go to a sedevacantist priest who thinks that a sedevacantist can go to an una cuм mass, if they so choose (i.e. CMRI ?). I’m not sure if this is true, so I would like to have evidence for this change in position.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #4 on: March 08, 2020, 10:59:15 AM »
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  • Here's the article: https://inveritateblog.com/2020/03/07/the-una-cuм-mass/
    The article, sad to say, is fit for the sewer. Always avoid reading things like this so as to avoid being familiarized with this thinking yourself. I suffered through the whole article and it is a fine example of a twisted mess of confused thinking. It is absolutely incredible to me to see what has become of this person whom I knew when he was a courageous young Catholic priest. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #5 on: March 08, 2020, 11:13:30 AM »
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  • His position is predicated on the dogmatic certainty that Bergoglio is not pope.  Problem, however, is in attempting to impose his conscience on others ... which he has no authority to do.  Others may have concluded that it's not dogmatically certain.  In fact, it cannot be ... without the Church's judgement.

    Nevertheless, he does articulate a principle that may have been helpful for Bishop Williamson when he spoke about attending the New Mass ...

    Quote
    I should say here that I am sure that nearly all those who attend the una cuм Mass do so in good conscience. They are ignorant of these principles, and attend only with some vague idea of remaining faithful to the pope. If such is the case, they are excused from sin.

    An excusing cause, however, is not a justifying cause. This is a principle of moral theology which means that ignorance excuses from guilt, but it does not justify the act. If a man shoots something moving in the woods, thinking it is a deer, and is actually a man, he is excused from guilt, but his act is not thereby justified. In itself it is a bad act.

    So +Williamson could have clarified that it is itself a bad act to attend the Novus Ordo, but many do so in good conscience and are therefore not guilty of sin.

    Offline jerm

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #6 on: March 08, 2020, 11:14:27 AM »
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  • I think what he’s saying is that the Sanborn group is now saying that you can’t even go to a sedevacantist priest who thinks that a sedevacantist can go to an una cuм mass, if they so choose (i.e. CMRI ?). I’m not sure if this is true, so I would like to have evidence for this change in position.
    I had a conversation on phone with Fr. Despòsito, one of the more prolific MHTS priests. I am certain- even having asked for clarification- that he told me that I should not go to the Mass of a local sedevacantist priest who works with an SSPX resistance priest in the same chapel (Fr. Ringrose of St. Athanasius, for the record), and I'm pretty sure he said not to confess to this priest as well. When I asked him about CMRI, he said one could go "at their own risk."
    I don't know if this is just his position, but I believe he was speaking for the seminary. If anyone else wants to ask him, I know he's pretty active on social media, and I have his phone number, although for obvious reasons I will not be posting it publicly.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #7 on: March 08, 2020, 11:15:16 AM »
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  • Here is the refutation by the Dimonds ... who are themselves dogmatic sedevacantists ..
    https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/una-cuм-mass/

    I find the citations from actual Church authorities to be compelling.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #8 on: March 08, 2020, 11:38:23 AM »
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  • I had a conversation on phone with Fr. Despòsito, one of the more prolific MHTS priests. I am certain- even having asked for clarification- that he told me that I should not go to the Mass of a local sedevacantist priest who works with an SSPX resistance priest in the same chapel (Fr. Ringrose of St. Athanasius, for the record), and I'm pretty sure he said not to confess to this priest as well. When I asked him about CMRI, he said one could go "at their own risk."
    I don't know if this is just his position, but I believe he was speaking for the seminary. If anyone else wants to ask him, I know he's pretty active on social media, and I have his phone number, although for obvious reasons I will not be posting it publicly.

    Yes, they do have this notion that heresy and schism are contagious, that someone who is in communion with someone who is in communion with someone who is in communion with a schismatic is in fact a schismatic.  This leads to a bizarre view of the Church in which there are about 3 Catholics left in the world.  This is the type of thinking that leads to home-aloneism.  I kindof called +Sanborn out on this one time.  He said that he was in communion with Bishop Kelly.  But Bishop Kelly was in communion with Bishop Mendez, and Bishop Mendez in communion with the Novus Ordo.  So I decided that I could not be in communion with +Sanborn.  Then it occurred to me that it's preposterous that I was pretty much the only Catholic left in the world, and that realization is what brought me back from the precipice of dogmatic sedevacantism.  Another consideration that helped me back away from sedevacantism is the notion that there are degrees of error that fall short of heresy in the strict sense, and that these errors do not make someone a heretic.  Sedevacantists like to shoot from the hip in accusing everyone of heresy, but the bar for heresy is rather high.  Then, the fact that people profess the Catholic faith means something, so it's a gross oversimplification to equate Novus Ordo Catholics with, say, the Orthodox schismatics ... which the dogmatic sedevacantists routinely do.  Finally, the argument that R&R "sift" the Magisterium based on private judgment also applies to sedevacantists, who sift Popes based on their private judgment.  So there were some huge gaps in the dogmatic sedevacantist position.

    Father Cekada, who associates with Bishop Sanborn, once wrote an article about how the SSPV treats schism and heresy as if they were contagious or the "cooties".  So I'm not sure why the two haven't had a more serious disagreement.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #9 on: March 08, 2020, 01:07:08 PM »
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  • This is the only thing I see mentioned regarding una cuм masses in its Theological Directory on the RCI website:

    Finally I hold that the traditional Latin Mass which is offered together with (una cuм) the Novus Ordo hierarchy is objectively sacrilegious. Consequently I affirm that active participation in Masses or services in which the name of a Novus Ordo hierarch is mentioned is objectively a mortal sin.

    I see nothing that states that Catholics can not attend masses of (or even go to confession with) those sedevacantist priests who believe otherwise.  I am going to give Fr Desposito the benefit of the doubt here.

    Offline jerm

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #10 on: March 08, 2020, 01:28:47 PM »
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  • This is the only thing I see mentioned regarding una cuм masses in its Theological Directory on the RCI website:

    Finally I hold that the traditional Latin Mass which is offered together with (una cuм) the Novus Ordo hierarchy is objectively sacrilegious. Consequently I affirm that active participation in Masses or services in which the name of a Novus Ordo hierarch is mentioned is objectively a mortal sin.

    I see nothing that states that Catholics can not attend masses of (or even go to confession with) those sedevacantist priests who believe otherwise.  I am going to give Fr Desposito the benefit of the doubt here.
    I'm only reporting what he said to me. 


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #11 on: March 08, 2020, 01:29:42 PM »
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  • I had a conversation on phone with Fr. Despòsito, one of the more prolific MHTS priests. I am certain- even having asked for clarification- that he told me that I should not go to the Mass of a local sedevacantist priest who works with an SSPX resistance priest in the same chapel (Fr. Ringrose of St. Athanasius, for the record), and I'm pretty sure he said not to confess to this priest as well. When I asked him about CMRI, he said one could go "at their own risk."
    I don't know if this is just his position, but I believe he was speaking for the seminary. If anyone else wants to ask him, I know he's pretty active on social media, and I have his phone number, although for obvious reasons I will not be posting it publicly.
    Jeremy,
    Were these comments by Fr Desposito solely about the una cuм issue?  Or were you discussing a number of things?  Because I tend to think that he was not just speaking on the una cuм issue here.

    Offline jerm

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #12 on: March 08, 2020, 04:15:52 PM »
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  • Jeremy,
    Were these comments by Fr Desposito solely about the una cuм issue?  Or were you discussing a number of things?  Because I tend to think that he was not just speaking on the una cuм issue here.
    It was all about the una cuм issue. 

    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #13 on: March 08, 2020, 04:30:28 PM »
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  • Jeremy,
    Were these comments by Fr Desposito solely about the una cuм issue?  Or were you discussing a number of things?  Because I tend to think that he was not just speaking on the una cuм issue here.
    .
    Sanborn doesn't think the CMRI should exist and he doesn't let his seminarians attend mass with their families if that means going to a CMRI chapel.  What is surprising about also issuing a moratorium on Fr. Ringrose?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Discussing Sanborn's New Anti-Una cuм Article
    « Reply #14 on: March 08, 2020, 04:48:53 PM »
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  • .
    Sanborn doesn't think the CMRI should exist and he doesn't let his seminarians attend mass with their families if that means going to a CMRI chapel.  What is surprising about also issuing a moratorium on Fr. Ringrose?
    Yes, I am aware of issues between Bishop Sanborn and the CMRI, but it wasn't about the una cuм issue.  That's why I was questioning jeremy's understanding/relaying of Father Desposito's comments.