.  Protestants and others can also make convincing arguments that The Church is the Whore of Babylon but we know based on Scripture, Chruch Fathers, and Tradition, that this is just not true. 

Maybe the Vat.2  new church is  "the Whore of Babylon"? 
New church is not the Catholic Church.

It’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.

Nah. Trad clergy believing that salvation exists outside the Church trumps it.

I agree with Lad. If they get it wrong on JPII, so what. They get far more right than anyone else out there. 

Nah. Trad clergy believing that salvation exists outside the Church trumps it.

Amen to that.

I agree with Lad. If they get it wrong on JPII, so what. They get far more right than anyone else out there.

They themselves aren't even saying it is anything more than their position on the identity of the Antichrist. I am only saying that I think that their selection of JPII as the Antichrist is closer to prophesy than any other potential candidate (see: Bill Gates, Mario Draghi, George Soros, Napoleon, Hitler, etc.), living or dead, outside of Nero and the pagan Emperors themselves. They could be wrong, and I could be wrong for agreeing with them on many points.

Also, while they haven't done a full analysis of Apocalypse 11 (the two witnesses), they have mentioned that some in Church history have suggested that this may be symbolic of Ss. Peter and Paul:

Some may ask: "If Rome is the 'great city,' why does Apocalypse 11:8 say that the great city is the place where Our Lord was crucified, which is Jerusalem?"  The answer is that it doesn’t actually say that:

Apoc. 11:8 - “[the two witnesses] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, even where their Lord was crucified.”

Notice that, contrary to what some have claimed, the Apocalypse doesn’t clearly state that the two witnesses (which some believe describe Peter and Paul) are killed in the city where Our Lord was crucified.  Notice that the passage could very well mean that the great city is called Sodom and Egypt even where their Lord was crucified.  In other words, the great city, Rome, is referred to as “Sodom” and “Egypt” as far away as Jerusalem (where their Lord was crucified) because of its immoralities!  This makes sense when we consider that Rome was notorious for its corruption.  Hence, this passage doesn’t clearly prove, as some have suggested, that Jerusalem must be the great city.

https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/apocalypse/

For all we know, Abp. Lefebvre and Bp. de Castro Mayer could have been the prophesied two witnesses, who died spiritually by initially accepting JPII's proposal for the consecrations, but then rose again by defying them. God only knows.

You do if you want to understand the argument they propose, since a video is how it's presented. Just dismissing it outright without inquiring as to why they say this, and how they support it, isn't being objective and I have no reason to continue responding to you on this subject until you do.

I've watched one of their videos before.  I'm dismissing it because you can pick up any book which quotes the Church Fathers/Scripture on the Apocalypse and they are WAY off.  The Diamonds are arguing JP2 based on symbolism and figurative language.  But the Church Fathers tells us, infallibly, which parts of the Apocalypse will happen LITERALLY and which are figurative.  The Diamonds are way off.

For all we know, Abp. Lefebvre and Bp. de Castro Mayer could have been the prophesied two witnesses, who died spiritually by initially accepting JPII's proposal for the consecrations, but then rose again by defying them. God only knows.

Yes, they could have been prefigurements of the 2 witnesses but they are not the ACTUAL 2 witnesses.  Go read scripture.  It tells us that the 2 witnesses will preach all over the world, work miracles, be martyred in the streets of jerusalem/rome (I can't remember) and lie there 3 days for all the world to see.  Then God will resurrect them, people will convert and on the story goes.

This is what will ACTUALLY happen.  This is not symbolism.  Has this happened yet?  No.  Therefore...JP2 isn't the antichrist nor are +ABL/+Meyer the witnesses.  The Diamonds are making the complex topic of Apocalypse MORE complex by ignoring the few literal facts that the Church has given us.

When did +ABL/+Meyer get martyred in the streets, lie there for 3 days and then get resurrected?  This will literally happen.

When in the 80s/90s was there a mark of the beast which everyone had to have to buy/sell?  This will literally happen.

Those are simply 2 questions that don't apply to JP2.  I could list off about 20 more.

for example, JPII being wounded mortally and then healed is a literal interpretation of Apoc. 13:3

Just because JP2 *might* fulfill 1 of 25 details that are infallible doesn't mean we can speculate.  If JP2 doesn't fulfill 25 of 25 (to use an example) and not even the obvious ones (i.e. he will lead armies and rule the world) then he isn't him.  

The problem with the Diamond Bros is their analysis on heresies/doctrine are about 90% quotes from councils, saints with the lowest necessary 10% conclusions, because once you spend all your time researching and organizing quotes from history, the logical conclusions follow.  That's why their analysis on heresies/doctrine are so good - because it's not based on the Diamond Bros ideas; it's based on Church docuмents/quotes.  They are just organizing things.

If they would follow the same process for the Apocalypse, then their conclusions would be closer to the truth.  But for some reason, they use much, much more speculation on anti-christ, instead of quoting the Church Fathers/saints, who have written volumes and volumes on the topic already.  They are trying to re-invent the wheel.  This is why their conclusions are wrong. 

I've watched one of their videos before.  I'm dismissing it because you can pick up any book which quotes the Church Fathers/Scripture on the Apocalypse and they are WAY off.  The Diamonds are arguing JP2 based on symbolism and figurative language.  But the Church Fathers tells us, infallibly, which parts of the Apocalypse will happen LITERALLY and which are figurative.  The Diamonds are way off.


Yes, they could have been prefigurements of the 2 witnesses but they are not the ACTUAL 2 witnesses.  Go read scripture.  It tells us that the 2 witnesses will preach all over the world, work miracles, be martyred in the streets of jerusalem/rome (I can't remember) and lie there 3 days for all the world to see.  Then God will resurrect them, people will convert and on the story goes.

This is what will ACTUALLY happen.  This is not symbolism.  Has this happened yet?  No.  Therefore...JP2 isn't the antichrist nor are +ABL/+Meyer the witnesses.  The Diamonds are making the complex topic of Apocalypse MORE complex by ignoring the few literal facts that the Church has given us.

You need to watch many of their videos. It's time consuming, I know, but the speed up feature helps. The reason why you need to watch many of their videos is because they don't tie up all the loose ends in one, and though there may be much repetition across a few of their videos, each contains some important bits of information that are essential to their whole explanation of the apocalypse. You may find that what they include in a somewhat unrelated video (at least title wise) should have been included in other videos.

The Dimonds used to say Benedict XV was the first king

I believe it was Pius XI ... since the Lateran Treaty created the Vatican state in 1929.  That part makes some sense.