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Author Topic: Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?  (Read 5546 times)

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Offline trad123

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Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
« on: January 18, 2010, 01:36:17 AM »
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #1 on: January 18, 2010, 05:41:47 AM »
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    • I don't really buy it.  Infallibility more than anything else involves the INTENTION of the pope to bind the faithful.  If Paul VI said that he didn't mean to teach infallibly then the teaching wasn't infallible.  What better guide do we have regarding his own intentions than his explicit statement?
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    Offline pax

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #2 on: January 18, 2010, 06:46:11 AM »
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    • Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?

    No! Thank God! Or you Sedes would be right.
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    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #3 on: January 18, 2010, 01:35:37 PM »
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    • Ladislaus said:
    Quote
    I don't really buy it. Infallibility more than anything else involves the INTENTION of the pope to bind the faithful. If Paul VI said that he didn't mean to teach infallibly then the teaching wasn't infallible. What better guide do we have regarding his own intentions than his explicit statement?


    You have the docuмent called Lumen Gentium which is subtitled "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church" which should tip you off that these men were DOUBLE-MINDED as I've mentioned now about a million times.  Yes, Paul VI said that Vatican II was pastoral -- sometimes.  At other moments he'd say the opposite.  That is what these communists do.

    I keep telling people to read Pascendi Domenici Gregis where Pius X describes how the Modernists are orthodox one moment, rationalist the next.  This is not paranoid, conspiracy-mongering Raoul76 talking but the Vicar Of Christ, Pius X, who God in his mercy provided to you to give a WARNING about just what would happen, which has been almost entirely ignored.  

    The Modernists don't just lie -- they mix truth with lies to keep you frozen.  At one moment, Vatican II is pastoral; but inside these docuмents we are told we must be with the mind and will of the "Pontiff" even when he's speaking in public.

    And if you still don't buy that Vatican II has any binding power, if you still buy the notion that a Council which totally changed the nature of the Church, and whose directives were enforced with an iron rod, is just "pastoral," and that a Pope could spend his entire pontificate just giving opinions and not teaching, Paul VI's eventual successor JPII did not speak through the "pastoral" Council and STILL taught heresy.  And Ratzinger taught heresy in a book that is still available to read BEFORE becoming Pope -- he hasn't changed -- putting him squarely in the target of cuм Ex Apostolatus.
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    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline trad123

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #4 on: January 18, 2010, 03:14:07 PM »
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #5 on: January 18, 2010, 04:59:18 PM »
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    • I would love for people to read the article and comment, don't be shy!

    And if you have objections, quote the article and comment on the parts you explicitly object to.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #6 on: January 18, 2010, 05:29:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123
    Why bother commenting if you didn't read the article?

    Read the article, then tell me you can still say that.


    Uhm, I DID read the article and I don't buy it.
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    Offline trad123

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #7 on: January 18, 2010, 05:31:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Uhm, I DID read the article and I don't buy it.


    Then please quote the parts you "don't buy" and explain to me why. If you truly believe me to be in error then do my soul a favor and prove the article wrong.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline 008

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #8 on: January 19, 2010, 12:20:26 AM »
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    •  What is clear for Davies, et al, and Catholic Faith  is that the Holy Spirit protects a Council from formal heresies when all the bishops receive its teachings,  together with, and not apart from,  a Pope. Evidently Pius XII considered Montini Catholic enough to hold high office ,secure from the threat of excommunication and thus Catholic enough to be papabile. Nor did any of the bishops of the Council suggest the Pope proposed heresies. Therefore it could not be received and be heresy at the same time since Pope and bishops acted together as guarantee, not apart.

    This does not mean the Council was not dangerously lax and capable of easy distortion. Only that its being received guaranteed the (negative) protection of the Holy Ghost to prevent a formal crossing of the line into heresy. Even Thuc and Lefebvre signed the docuмents and then the whole Church received it... but for an insignificant few and only after the fact.

    Many however are convinced the council came too dangerously close for comfort to error to be useful, as the fruits also showed,  and so it should be corrected or allowed to fade away or be precipitously rejected by a future Pope whom most Sedevacantists will not be able to account for.
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    Offline Petertherock

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #9 on: January 19, 2010, 12:55:27 AM »
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    • No council can be infallible. Only the Pope has infallibility under certain, very limited circuмstances.

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    Offline Raoul76

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #10 on: January 19, 2010, 01:03:01 AM »
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    • Quote
    Evidently Pius XII considered Montini Catholic enough to hold high office, secure from the threat of excommunication and thus Catholic enough to be papabile


    Yes he did.  Montini was his right-hand man.  Pius XII also appointed Annibale Bugnini, architect of the New Mass, to the all-new Commission on Liturgical Reform.  And he had high praise for the Modernist theologian Dietrich von Hildebrand.

    That is why you will not hear me echoing the sedevacantist clergy saying Pius XII was the last prince of the Church and that in the 1950's everything was roses and lollipops.
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    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline trad123

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #11 on: January 19, 2010, 01:15:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: 008
    What is clear for Davies, et al, and Catholic Faith  is that the Holy Spirit protects a Council from formal heresies when all the bishops receive its teachings,  together with, and not apart from,  a Pope.


    I agree.  

    Quote from: 008
    Therefore it could not be received and be heresy at the same time since Pope and bishops acted together as guarantee, not apart.


    Yes, but only if Paul VI were truly pope.

    Quote from: 008
    Only that its being received guaranteed the (negative) protection of the Holy Ghost to prevent a formal crossing of the line into heresy. Even Thuc and Lefebvre signed the docuмents and then the whole Church received it... but for an insignificant few and only after the fact.


    I deny that Vatican II contained no heresies.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #12 on: January 19, 2010, 01:19:59 AM »
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    • I've only skimmed the article so far but what I read clicked with me.  Too bad John Daly has no problem with the una cuм Mass; he had lots of wisdom to offer.
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    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline trad123

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #13 on: January 19, 2010, 01:51:20 AM »
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly?
    « Reply #14 on: January 19, 2010, 02:09:38 AM »
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    • The Syllabus of Errors Condemned by Pius IX

    Quote
    23. Roman pontiffs and ecuмenical councils have wandered outside the limits of their powers, have usurped the rights of princes, and have even erred in defining matters of faith and morals. (Denzinger 1723)
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.
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