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Poll

Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?

Martin Luther remained a Catholic till his bitter end, per Stubborn?
1 (3.1%)
Martin Luther was a non Catholic when he manifested his heresy publicly?
21 (65.6%)
Martin Luther was still a Catholic until the time he was excommunicated by name in 1521 and then ceased being a Catholic at that time?
4 (12.5%)
I’m not sure.
6 (18.8%)

Total Members Voted: 32

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Author Topic: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?  (Read 7156 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2024, 06:17:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 03, 2024, 05:47:47 AM
    We are *talking* about a penitent. You highlighted the wrong word, then added your own mixed up criteria to your own mixed up idea.

    The fact that the priest administers the sacrament to a heretic at all *should* show you that the heretic is a Catholic.

    You even admitted that The Church does not administer her sacraments to those she knows is non-Catholics, not ever. You neglected to add: *not even conditionally.* Period. Apparently you do not believe this, or don't know what to believe - which is what your last few posts demonstrate. 

    You are the one who does not understand what a conditional sacrament is. For the Last Rites it's: "If thou art still alive" -not- "If thou hast overtly displayed repentance when I wasn't (or was?) looking."

    If the penitent heretic can still communicate, obviously the priest would confirm his desire to receive the sacrament, but if he cannot communicate and is still alive, then Per Trent, the priest may administer the sacrament    : "all priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever: and as, save at that point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases, let this alone be their endeavour, to persuade penitents to repair to superior and lawful judges for the benefit  of absolution."

    Further, should the penitent recover and the very next day he goes back to being a heretic, proving that the whole "death bed episode" was insincere, a farce and a lie, then he only adds to his sins. And yet, if a year later he's back on his death bed, all of the above could well be repeated. Why? Because once a Catholic, always a Catholic.

    Your thoughts are so convoluted.

    When the penitent demonstrates that he wants to be reconciled with the Church, he makes his confession and is given absolution. It seems he becomes a member of the Church at the point he desires to become a Catholic. Extreme Unction is then given AFTERWARDS! He is given Extreme Unction conditionally ONLY if there are signs of repentance prior to him being incognizant.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #46 on: October 03, 2024, 06:40:47 AM »
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    • 1917 Code of Canon Law:

    731.2. it is forbidden that the Sacraments of the Church be ministered to heretics and schismatics, even if they ask for them and are in good faith, unless beforehand, rejecting their errors, they are reconciled with the Church."

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #47 on: October 03, 2024, 06:49:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on October 03, 2024, 06:17:17 AM
    Your thoughts are so convoluted.

    When the penitent demonstrates that he wants to be reconciled with the Church, he makes his confession and is given absolution. It seems he becomes a member of the Church at the point he desires to become a Catholic. Extreme Unction is then given AFTERWARDS! He is given Extreme Unction conditionally ONLY if there are signs of repentance prior to him being incognizant.
    What do you think a penitent is? Someone who does not want to be reconciled with the Church?

    No, it does not "seem" that he, on account of having a change of heart and desiring it, becomes a member of the Church - where do you get this stuff?  
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #48 on: October 03, 2024, 11:12:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 03, 2024, 06:49:37 AM
    What do you think a penitent is? Someone who does not want to be reconciled with the Church?

    No, it does not "seem" that he, on account of having a change of heart and desiring it, becomes a member of the Church - where do you get this stuff? 

    The reason I used the words “it seems” is because I’m not 100% sure exactly when it happens as I’m not a theologian and haven’t studied the subject in depth. 
    Now, look at you. You pontificate in direct contradiction to every theologian and canonist who teach that heresy separates one from being a member of the Church. 

    Have some introspection man. You’re the only one on this forum who thinks that Martin Luther was a member of the Catholic Church until “his bitter end”. That is plainly heterodox and just plain sick.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #49 on: October 03, 2024, 12:20:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 03, 2024, 06:40:47 AM
    1917 Code of Canon Law:

    731.2. it is forbidden that the Sacraments of the Church be ministered to heretics and schismatics, even if they ask for them and are in good faith, unless beforehand, rejecting their errors, they are reconciled with the Church."

    Thank you!
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #50 on: October 03, 2024, 12:35:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on October 03, 2024, 11:12:04 AM
    The reason I used the words “it seems” is because I’m not 100% sure exactly when it happens as I’m not a theologian and haven’t studied the subject in depth.
    Well you keep looking and you will find "it happened" when he first became a Catholic.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #51 on: October 03, 2024, 01:11:57 PM »
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    • Quote
    1917 Code of Canon Law:

    731.2. it is forbidden that the Sacraments of the Church be ministered to heretics and schismatics, even if they ask for them and are in good faith, unless beforehand, rejecting their errors, they are reconciled with the Church."
    This is an important point, on the practical level....which is all that matters.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #52 on: October 03, 2024, 01:23:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 03, 2024, 01:11:57 PM
    This is an important point, on the practical level....which is all that matters.
    Everyone agrees with this, the disagreement at hand has not changed. At the moment, QV cannot figure out at what point the penitent heretic becomes a Catholic again. At least he's made it that far. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #53 on: October 03, 2024, 01:50:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 03, 2024, 01:23:50 PM
    Everyone agrees with this, the disagreement at hand has not changed. At the moment, QV cannot figure out at what point the penitent heretic becomes a Catholic again. At least he's made it that far.

    The Good Lord knows I’ve tried to help you and correct your heterodoxy on many issues and for many years.  Fiat Voluntas Tua!
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #54 on: October 03, 2024, 03:24:38 PM »
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    • Both of you keep talking past one another.  I'm not sure if it's a comedy or a tragedy.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #55 on: October 03, 2024, 03:41:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 03, 2024, 03:24:38 PM
    Both of you keep talking past one another.  I'm not sure if it's a comedy or a tragedy.


    You must have missed my post to you:


    Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 01, 2024, 06:46:14 PM
    Quote
    Theory vs practice. 
    Potentially vs actually.  

    Same thing I’ve been saying.  

    QVD has a problem because he hates distinctions and likes everything black n white.  Which is why he likes straight Sedevancantism and is opposed to any nuance of the idea (ie sedeprivationism…human/govt papal office vs spiritual papal office).  For him, everything is ‘either-or’.

    It’s probably the root cause of 50% of the debates on this site.  1) Lack of distinctions and 2) those who vehemently oppose all distinctions.  

    Quote from QVD:

    “This is not true. I have no problem with making distinctions and you even acknowledged that in my post above by saying: “You just re-wrote what I already have said about 10x.  Thanks for finally getting it.”

    Your problem is that you didn’t recognize that it was Stubborn who used just the word “Catholic” instead of making any distinction between being a member of the Catholic Church and having the baptismal character. You tried to give Stubborn an “out” from adhering to his heterodox beliefs of “once a Catholic always a Catholic” and “Luther remained a Catholic till his bitter end”. 

    As you can see from his post above to Vermont, he makes it clear that when he says “remains a Catholic” he really means being a member of the Church: “No, a Catholic does not forfeit his membership anymore than the army solder who deserts from the army forfeits his.”

    This is undeniable proof that he erroneously believes that Martin Luther was a member of the Catholic Church until the day he died. No true sane Catholic can possibly hold that position without being, at the very least, in the state of sin.

    It’s obvious as to why he believes this idiocy. It’s because he knows that once he accepts the true teaching of the Church, that one can lose membership in the Church by heresy, he will have to admit that Bergoglio isn’t a real pope.

    Stubborn has a bad habit of spreading dangerous error on this forum and it’s my duty as a Catholic to try and expose it as best as I can.”
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    Online Gray2023

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #56 on: October 03, 2024, 04:03:29 PM »
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    • And on the practical side of things, to what ends will this conversation keep going.

    We have Pope Francis sitting in the seat of Peter, so does this mean that anyone who leaves the Church since V2 has no way of coming back because 1) Pope Franis is not Catholic and 2) the Bishops who are acting from emergency jurisdiction did not get permission for said people to come back, which can lead some people into a blackhole of hopelessness.

    All this talk is interesting from a theological perspective in regards to Martin Luther, but maybe it is causing some to be scared that the are not actually Catholic in the first place (like myself)  who was baptized in the 70s joined the Methodist church in the 90s and came back to the Novus ordo in the 2000 and then became a traditional Catholic. 

    I am pretty sure I have done my due diligence,  but I posted just in case others are feeling the same way.

    Thoughts?

    Ignore me if this a total derailment of the conversation.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #57 on: October 03, 2024, 04:08:41 PM »
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    • QVD, you are just as "stubborn" as Stubborn, except the completely opposite.  You refuse to admit the truth in potential/in theory, while he continues to refuse to admit the truth in actual/in practical terms.

    So, yes, both of you keep talking past one another.  Both of you refuse to make distinctions.

    I'd say it's more of a tragedy than a comedy at this point.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #58 on: October 03, 2024, 05:27:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on October 01, 2024, 02:04:34 PM
    Stubborn erroneously claims that the heretic Martin Luther remained a Catholic until his “bitter end”. I’m interested to see if anyone cares to defend this heterodox claim.
    .

    No. The Church can expel someone from her membership through excommunication. Once someone is excommunicated, he ceases to be a member of the Church. In the 1917 code this only happens if the excommunication is "vitandus", which is rare.

    A person can lose membership in the Church either by his own choice or against his will. The former happens through heresy, schism or apostasy. The latter happens through being excommunicated, but only if he is excommunicated "vitandus".

    All of this is pretty standard information that can be found in any pre-Vatican 2 reference work on Catholic theology.

    Martin Luther was excommunicated "vitandus", and therefore ceased to be a member of the Church.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #59 on: October 03, 2024, 06:12:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on October 03, 2024, 05:27:24 PM
    .

    No. The Church can expel someone from her membership through excommunication. Once someone is excommunicated, he ceases to be a member of the Church. In the 1917 code this only happens if the excommunication is "vitandus", which is rare.

    A person can lose membership in the Church either by his own choice or against his will. The former happens through heresy, schism or apostasy. The latter happens through being excommunicated, but only if he is excommunicated "vitandus".

    All of this is pretty standard information that can be found in any pre-Vatican 2 reference work on Catholic theology.

    Martin Luther was excommunicated "vitandus", and therefore ceased to be a member of the Church.

    Good post, but it seems to me that his membership in the Church ceased when he became a manifest heretic. I believe that the Church confirmed what most learned Catholics knew when She declared that he was excommunicated and was to be avoided.
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