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Poll

Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?

Martin Luther remained a Catholic till his bitter end, per Stubborn?
1 (3.1%)
Martin Luther was a non Catholic when he manifested his heresy publicly?
21 (65.6%)
Martin Luther was still a Catholic until the time he was excommunicated by name in 1521 and then ceased being a Catholic at that time?
4 (12.5%)
I’m not sure.
6 (18.8%)

Total Members Voted: 32

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Author Topic: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?  (Read 7159 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
« on: October 01, 2024, 02:04:34 PM »
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    • Stubborn erroneously claims that the heretic Martin Luther remained a Catholic until his “bitter end”. I’m interested to see if anyone cares to defend this heterodox claim.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #1 on: October 01, 2024, 02:17:58 PM »
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    • No one says that.  You're twisting his words.  You're a bad-willed moron.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #2 on: October 01, 2024, 02:21:52 PM »
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    • During the so-called "reformation", it wasn't immediately clear at what point the parties involved ceased to be Catholic.  That came later.  Trent defined a lot of things.

    Excommunication, all by itself, does not cause a person to cease to be a Catholic.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #3 on: October 01, 2024, 02:26:57 PM »
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    • Quote
    Excommunication, all by itself, does not cause a person to cease to be a Catholic.
    Exactly.

    Also, the saying "Once a catholic, always a catholic" is not meant to be some dogma/doctrine.  It's a saying.  Like all sayings, there's some truth to it and there's also some things left unsaid.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #4 on: October 01, 2024, 02:46:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 01, 2024, 02:17:58 PM
    No one says that.  You're twisting his words.  You're a bad-willed moron.
    No, he's not.  He said that here:

    Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility - page 8 - Crisis in the Church - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

    What does Once a Catholic, always a Catholic mean to you? Likely it's heresy to you. In the case of Fr. Luther, he remained a Catholic till his bitter end, excommunicated and and guilty of the public mortal sins of heresy, apostacy and schism, and you can add adultery and whatever other public mortal sins you know of.  
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #5 on: October 01, 2024, 02:47:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 01, 2024, 02:17:58 PM
    No one says that.  You're twisting his words.  You're a bad-willed moron.

    Another one of your lies. Please demonstrate how I twisted his words?
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #6 on: October 01, 2024, 02:51:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 01, 2024, 02:46:09 PM
    No, he's not.  He said that here:

    Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility - page 8 - Crisis in the Church - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

    What does Once a Catholic, always a Catholic mean to you? Likely it's heresy to you. In the case of Fr. Luther, he remained a Catholic till his bitter end, excommunicated and and guilty of the public mortal sins of heresy, apostacy and schism, and you can add adultery and whatever other public mortal sins you know of. 


    Thank you Vermont! I’m really sick of this guy’s lies and incessant attacks. I think he can’t handle when I corner him with logic, it’s like using a crucifix with Dracula. :laugh1:
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #7 on: October 01, 2024, 02:54:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on October 01, 2024, 02:21:52 PM
    Excommunication, all by itself, does not cause a person to cease to be a Catholic.

    Very true.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline MiserereMei

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #8 on: October 01, 2024, 03:03:46 PM »
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    • Seen from a different point of view, he wouldn't had needed being re-baptized had he repented. The Catholic (Christian) mark stays no matter what.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #9 on: October 01, 2024, 03:05:32 PM »
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    • This whole debate is a matter of semantics.  Many of you (but not all) refuse to see the other side and just argue.  It's childish.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #10 on: October 01, 2024, 03:06:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiserereMei on October 01, 2024, 03:03:46 PM
    Seen from a different point of view, he wouldn't had needed being re-baptized had he repented. The Catholic (Christian) mark stays no matter what.

    You’re right. The sacramental character is always there.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #11 on: October 01, 2024, 03:26:33 PM »
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    • I guess I'm not understanding what there is even an argument about on this one. Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders are Sacraments that leave an indelible mark on the soul. If one is using the fact of an indelible mark as the only criterion for a person to be labelled "Catholic", then yes, Luther is still a Catholic, even as he agonizes in Hell. But Church teaching, such as Mystici Corporis paragraph 22, explains that one can separate himself from the Church, rendering the application of the term "Catholic" to someone such as Luther untenable in any practical sense of the word:

    Quote
    22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jєωs or Gentiles, whether bond or free."[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.


    https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi.html


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    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #12 on: October 01, 2024, 03:36:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Emile on October 01, 2024, 03:26:33 PM
    I guess I'm not understanding what there is even an argument about on this one. Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders are Sacraments that leave an indelible mark on the soul. If one is using the fact of an indelible mark as the only criterion for a person to be labelled "Catholic", then yes, Luther is still a Catholic, even as he agonizes in Hell. But Church teaching, such as Mystici Corporis paragraph 22, explains that one can separate himself from the Church, rendering the application of the term "Catholic" to someone such as Luther untenable in any practical sense of the word:
    You would think.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #13 on: October 01, 2024, 03:38:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Emile on October 01, 2024, 03:26:33 PM
    I guess I'm not understanding what there is even an argument about on this one. Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders are Sacraments that leave an indelible mark on the soul. If one is using the fact of an indelible mark as the only criterion for a person to be labelled "Catholic", then yes, Luther is still a Catholic, even as he agonizes in Hell. But Church teaching, such as Mystici Corporis paragraph 22, explains that one can separate himself from the Church, rendering the application of the term "Catholic" to someone such as Luther untenable in any practical sense of the word:

    Thank you! Some sanity interspersed between Pax’s and Stubborn’s idiocy.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did Martin Luther remain a Catholic till his bitter end?
    « Reply #14 on: October 01, 2024, 03:46:02 PM »
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    I guess I'm not understanding what there is even an argument about on this one. Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders are Sacraments that leave an indelible mark on the soul. If one is using the fact of an indelible mark as the only criterion for a person to be labelled "Catholic", then yes, Luther is still a Catholic, even as he agonizes in Hell. But Church teaching, such as Mystici Corporis paragraph 22, explains that one can separate himself from the Church, rendering the application of the term "Catholic" to someone such as Luther untenable in any practical sense of the word:
    This distinction between indelible mark (sacramental catholic) vs actual catholic in good standing (Faith practicing catholic)....it has been explained about 1,000x on this site.  And about 50x just in the last 2 days.  I'm glad people finally "get" what we've already said.

    It's theory vs practice.

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    Thank you! Some sanity interspersed between Pax’s and Stubborn’s idiocy.
    How is what he said "sanity" when he said the exact same thing as I did, just using different words?

    :jester:  Just because you didn't understand HOW we explained something, doesn't mean we were wrong. 
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