Author Topic: Did John XXII Use his Pontifical Authority to Teach Heresy? (Read 1141 times)

Ambrose · « **on:** November 05, 2013, 12:54:23 AM »

I am moving this discussion from the General Forum on the missal to here as this deserves its own thread.

Neil Obstat wrote:

Quote

There was a pope who preached openly that there is no particular
judgment and that everyone who dies has to wait for the General
Judgment to find out what his fate will be. He recanted before he
died. But in the meantime, which went on for several years, there
was a rising corruption in the Faith of Catholics who believed what
they heard the Pope erroneously teach. So there indeed have been
popes who have taught heresy to the universal Church. And none
of them have been judged to therefore not have been true popes.

Neil,

The Pope you are describing is Pope John XXII, who as a private theologian, not as Pope, and not as the Supreme Teacher of Christendom, preached that there was no particular judgment.

The Catholic Encyclopedia (Particular Judgment) states:

Quote

Pope John XXII (1316-1334) at Avignon, as a private theologian, seems to have supported this view, but that he gave it any official sanction is a fable invented by the Fallibilists.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm

The CE (John XXII) states:

Quote

In the last years of John's pontificate there arose a dogmatic conflict about the Beatific Vision, which was brought on by himself, and which his enemies made use of to discredit him. Before his elevation to the Holy See, he had written a work on this question, in which he stated that the souls of the blessed departed do not see God until after the Last Judgment. After becoming pope, he advanced the same teaching in his sermons. In this he met with strong opposition, many theologians, who adhered to the usual opinion that the blessed departed did see God before the Resurrection of the Body and the Last Judgment, even calling his view heretical. A great commotion was aroused in the University of Paris when the General of the Minorites and a Dominican tried to disseminate there the pope's view. Pope John wrote to King Philip IV on the matter (November, 1333), and emphasized the fact that, as long as the Holy See had not given a decision, the theologians enjoyed perfect freedom in this matter. In December, 1333, the theologians at Paris, after a consultation on the question, decided in favour of the doctrine that the souls of the blessed departed saw God immediately after death or after their complete purification; at the same time they pointed out that the pope had given no decision on this question but only advanced his personal opinion, and now petitioned the pope to confirm their decision. John appointed a commission at Avignon to study the writings of the Fathers, and to discuss further the disputed question. In a consistory held on 3 January, 1334, the pope explicitly declared that he had never meant to teach aught contrary to Holy Scripture or the rule of faith and in fact had not intended to give any decision whatever. Before his death he withdrew his former opinion, and declared his belief that souls separated from their bodies enjoyed in heaven the Beatific Vision.

Also read a good history of the incident here:

History of The Church, Volume III, Hughes, 1947

http://books.google.com/books?id=L2nvpmOLdLwC&lpg=PA154&dq=John%20XXIi%20particular%20judgment&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q=John%20XXIi%20particular%20judgment&f=false

Ambrose · « **Reply #1 on:** November 05, 2013, 12:56:44 AM »

The Title of this thread should refer to John XXII, not John XXIII. My apologies for any confusion. If Matthew or Mater read this thread I would ask them to fix the typo.

2Vermont · « **Reply #2 on:** November 05, 2013, 04:37:26 AM »

Although I understand why you've created this thread Ambrose, private or not, I fail to see how any of this even comes close to the promulgation of the heretical teachings in Vatican II and the subsequent hierarchy continuing to teach these heresies by their words and actions.

The situation we find ourselves in are not popes who happen to make errors in their statements....before or after being pope. We're all human; we can all make mistakes. We are dealing with the promulgation of a new religion.

Ambrose · « **Reply #3 on:** November 05, 2013, 07:23:42 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Although I understand why you've created this thread Ambrose, private or not, I fail to see how any of this even comes close to the promulgation of the heretical teachings in Vatican II and the subsequent hierarchy continuing to teach these heresies by their words and actions.

The situation we find ourselves in are not popes who happen to make errors in their statements....before or after being pope. We're all human; we can all make mistakes. We are dealing with the promulgation of a new religion.

2Vermont,

I started this thread to respond to Neil Obstat"s use of the case of John XXII's denying the particular judgment as a means of supporting the claims of the Vatican II "popes."

You are right in your observations about this. John XXII was giving his opinion on a matter not yet settled by the Church by a magisterial statement. When he was confronted about it, he charged theologians to study the matter and report to him. In the end, right before his death, he accepted the explanation of the theologians.

John XXII did not behave with malice, which clearly shows that he did not embrace heresy. He wanted the truth, and that is why he commissioned theologians to study the issue, and when he realized his opinion was wrong he recanted it.

The Vatican II papal claimants are teaching error to the universal Church through encyclicals, canon law, speeches published in the Acta, the universal catechism, etc.

The Vatican II papal claimants are denying settled matters previously and clearly taught by the magisterium.

The Vatican II claimants do not accept any correction, as John XXII did. They simply ignore Catholics who are scandalized by their break from orthodoxy. They do not behave as innocent men, who made a mistake, as John XXII did. They are working to convince Catholics to change their belief from orthodox sound doctrine to a new heretical and erroneous doctrine. They are pushing it only so far as they think Catholics can handle it, as they are trying to hide the fact that they are wolves.

There is nothing in common with John XXII and these heretical antipopes.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #4 on:** November 05, 2013, 12:59:57 PM »

Right the issues was not settled and he changed as soon as the true teaching was brought to his attention. Have the new Popes changed their errors these past 55 years? I hadn't noticed. On the surface, comparing the one to the other would seem to stem from dishonesty or ignorance. A true case of apples and oranges. Show me a valid Pope who believed, taught and engaged in heresy for the entirety of their "pontificates" and imposed and maintained non-Catholic things on the Church?

Again, if valid Popes can do all these things what purpose do they serve???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Just asking.

2Vermont · « **Reply #5 on:** November 05, 2013, 03:23:58 PM »

Why is this thread's format so messed up?

soulguard · « **Reply #6 on:** November 05, 2013, 03:35:53 PM »

This thread has been :smoke-pot:

:cool:

MaterDominici · « **Reply #7 on:** November 05, 2013, 09:00:12 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Why is this thread's format so messed up?

Because LOT used 10,000 question marks when 10 would do.

Ambrose · « **Reply #8 on:** November 05, 2013, 11:19:49 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

Quote from: 2Vermont
Why is this thread's format so messed up?

Because LOT used 10,000 question marks when 10 would do.

Thank you for fixing it.