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Offline Truth is Eternal

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Did Adult Catholics Really not Know?
« on: May 18, 2014, 05:09:40 PM »
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  • While waiting outside before mass today, I was talking to a gal about 80 years old. She told me when Vatican 2 came along, Since most adult Catholics did not study their faith, they did not know how bad Vatican 2 was and so they just went along with it. She said  they only went to a Catholic Church because that is how they were raised. Is this true? I was under the assumption good-will Catholics were warning people about the dangers of Vatican 2, before, during and even after its implementation. How could these Catholics at that time not know Vatican 2 was bad when other Catholics were warning them?
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    Offline songbird

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    Did Adult Catholics Really not Know?
    « Reply #1 on: May 18, 2014, 06:08:53 PM »
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  • My mother is age 83 and she is remaining New Order.  Now, is it true about not knowing their catechism.  Well, I can only say how my mother came across and not all are going to be like her.  Here goes.  It was my Grandmother, my mom's mother who was educated via my great-great uncle Fr. Stoltz.  He was from the Precious Blood Society, trained in Collegeville, IN in 1898 or such and at Carthegenia, OH at St. Charles seminary during the early 1900's and was ordained in 1907 a priest for 34 years.  When he came to the family, in Indiana, they had talks and rosary and dinner.  That was how they were educated.  Whatever Fr. Stoltz was taught, it came to the family.  Books were not around as much as they are now, or at least not in our area.  It was my grandmother, who was known to say, "There goes the Church!" when Vatican II was begun.  See, she knew!  My mother was the youngest of 8 children, born in 1931.  She was in a catholic school.  She was not a reader and did not have desires there.  She married at age 19 and had 9 of us and I was number 2.  If we, my parents were to be educated on the Faith, it came from the pulpit.  We had the Sunday Visitor and that was it and the newspaper. A library was not in our catholic school til I was in 3rd grade.  We did have Vision Books of the saints.  But as to education of what was coming, like modernism and such, no, it was not there.  There was no talk of if at our kitchen table.  What was talk, was where will we hide for fallout for protection.  You see, it was talk of the bodily.  Then what was floating around was in the backs of our heads from the protestant relatives from my dads' side. (my dad was a convert when married).  What that was, was that the protestants could be saved too.  Like the catholics are not better than protestants.  So, even though it was not talked about, it was in the brains of us.  If you did not have the catechism, you could not answer to the things coming into the mind.  So, when changes came in about 1963 or such, those who did not understand their Faith, or could not answer to what was happening, went along with it.  And continued to go along with it and some liked the changes.  The women wanted artificial birth control, they wanted remarriage after divorces and such.  They wanted to be accepted and so, modernism played a big part in the changes.  The priest, if they were infiltrators, kept the reasons for accepting the wrong as good changes.  My mother fell for this.  She did take on the "PILL" in 1966.  Then when dad died, 5 years later, my protestant Aunt got her introduced to a twice divorced man and the New Order priest helped my mother to rig the issue.  My mom played the game.  She had to go without sacraments for a year, while the man's 2 divorces were annulled and he became a New Order catholic and my mom went to the priest for confession and all was made right, but I was the only one of the 9 kids who did not accept the dodging of laws.  So, I am the outcast and my siblings don't call on me or my husband.  So, this 80year old lady makes a good point.  I had to learn and I had to educate myself.  If you desire a Faith that is true and solid you have to educate yourself, and you have to know where the truth is or waste your time.

    My mom was busy with 9 children and there was no rosary being said in the home.  See, there are lots of things going on that leads up to what I just told you.  Having Faith takes work.  When things came up in the family with protestants involved, my mom gagged herself to keep false peace.  She did not know what she was doing, just that she thought that was the way to handle things.  We have been conditioned and we need to educate ourselves to know what being Catholic is, how we conduct ourselves and present ourselves and such.  Without a good example, we are like orphans who are on their own, pre se to learn.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Did Adult Catholics Really not Know?
    « Reply #2 on: May 18, 2014, 06:14:11 PM »
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  • I would tend to believe that the average Joe Schmoe Catholic didn't really know the doctrinal issues.  Heck, most still don't know.

    However, I do think that for many they "knew" something was wrong when it came to the change in the liturgy.  But being loyal, obedient Catholics they went along with it (well, most did).
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline songbird

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    Did Adult Catholics Really not Know?
    « Reply #3 on: May 18, 2014, 06:18:34 PM »
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  • I think you could add to this: Have you ever tried to convince a new order person that the truth is in the traditional?  It is the same now as then generations ago.  People wanted change, they liked the change and they helped bring it on.  They do that in new order.  They love the hand shaking and they love the idea of all religions coming together because the catholics are making the move and oh, how lovily it all is.  Love, Love!!! Yet,there are people there that are disgusted with the talking and shorts, halter tops and such!! Yet they stay there, because they are in the thoughts that to leave is to be in Schism BUT, if they knew the laws of the church, read the books that can help them, they might be able to pull themselves away and be able to rest their minds.  

    I was young when I asked my mom a question about my faith and she had no answer and she said, "Oh my, if you ask then your faith is little and I said, but if you have an answer, it could be made stronger."  Well, my mom was surprised at what came out!  But thank God for God for instilling that, for it is just that that helps me keep up the FAith, God's Help and my desire to get answers before they pile up.  If I am going to be a Catholic, if someone asks me a question of it, I hope I can answer or direct them to that answer or it would look bad on God for His True Faith.  But my mom would come back at me with things like,"You just think you know it all or why can't you just follow....

    Offline Marlelar

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    Did Adult Catholics Really not Know?
    « Reply #4 on: May 18, 2014, 06:28:14 PM »
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  • My mom is 83 and thinks the changes of V2 were great.  She has a distaste for the "old days". Breaks my heart.  She has NO idea what was lost, what she has lost.

    Marsha


    Offline songbird

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    Did Adult Catholics Really not Know?
    « Reply #5 on: May 18, 2014, 07:15:32 PM »
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  • boy! Marielar, we (songbird) are on the same page!!  When Pope Leo X111 and St. Pius X spoke of the dangers of modernism, it truly was a bad thing.  BUT I have to admit, I never heard it explained and I am 61.  We lived in the Midwest.  My mom spoke of St. Bernadette and such but after 9 children and I think being around protestant relatives did not help, but I really looked up to her as a young adult and things changed between us.  Very sad!

    Offline songbird

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    Did Adult Catholics Really not Know?
    « Reply #6 on: May 18, 2014, 07:17:09 PM »
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  • Marielar:   Your mother lost nothing, for she never had it.  She had her sights in other places. That is what is so sad.  You can't bring back the old days and its beauty, if there never was in their minds to begin with.

    Offline Frances

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    Did Adult Catholics Really not Know?
    « Reply #7 on: May 18, 2014, 08:14:12 PM »
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  •  :dancing-banana:
    The answer is no!  Neither of my parents knew anything beyond rote memorisation and parroting back of the catechism.  What the authority said was not to be questioned.  To question was to disrespect and disobey.  This was the mindset with all authority, especially the priests.  My parents are 85 and 91.  They still don't understand what has gone wrong with the Church and the entire world.  They DO know it's a disaster but are too old to fight.  
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  


    Offline TKGS

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    Did Adult Catholics Really not Know?
    « Reply #8 on: May 18, 2014, 09:57:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    I would tend to believe that the average Joe Schmoe Catholic didn't really know the doctrinal issues.  Heck, most still don't know.

    However, I do think that for many they "knew" something was wrong when it came to the change in the liturgy.  But being loyal, obedient Catholics they went along with it (well, most did).


    I've spoken with quite a few elderly Catholics, many of whom are now traditional Catholics though many are not.  This has been my anecdotal conclusion:

    They say that the ones who rejected the changes were a minority--a tiny minority.

    Another comparable minority, as 2Vermont said, knew something was wrong but still went along.  These are the elderly in today's Conciliar parishes who remain in the Conciliar church but have no joy.

    The vast majority of Catholics just did what they were told and, over time, changed their faith to accommodate the New Religion or they went to an entirely different religion.  Some did so eagerly, others just sort of fell into it.  (I've heard it said that if "ex-Catholic" was a separate religious demographic, it would be the largest demographic group in the United States.)

    One lady I knew told me that when the New Mass was introduced, she refused to go after the first month and went to a local cemetery and prayed the rosary every Sunday for years before finding an independent traditional chapel.  Her husband, teen children, her mother and father, her sisters and brothers, and all the rest of her relatives thought she was crazy!  Her husband remained in the Conciliar church until he died.  When she died a couple of years ago, she was the only person in her family still going to church.

    Offline songbird

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    « Reply #9 on: May 18, 2014, 11:19:17 PM »
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  • Changes were so slow and gradual.  Schemes were used to keep the people in the new Order.  One was to get them involved.  Bring on the guitars, young people to read the readings and such.  This brought on self-esteem.  Then the twisting of meanings, like why a priest washes his hands; because dirty fruit and things were given for offertory and so the priest washed his hands.  Why the altar was against a wall.  To hold up the fruit and vegetables. and It just kept going.  By 1971 veils were off the womens' heads.  Because it was so gradual, there were no traditional masses, they were slow coming.  So, we were stuck so to say.  And of course, retreats and catechism was changing.  We were at the mercy of God, unless someone told us different.  I was age 20 in 1972 and no traditional, went overseas with Air Force husband and still nothing.  Left there in 1983.  By 1986 we saw traditional.  By 1996 we joined. But, we would not have had that change, if it were not for other people telling me there was something else.  And because I joined a group of women in search of who was the enemy bringing sex ed. to the schools, under the Governor, I would not have known the truth.  New Order dioceses nation wide was the enemy and it was a shock, but I thank God for that Shock.  The other women refused traditional and I was the only one.  None of these women speak to me anymore.  Oh, well!  I thank God we found the Truth!

    Offline Matthew

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    Did Adult Catholics Really not Know?
    « Reply #10 on: May 18, 2014, 11:19:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: songbird
    My mother is age 83 and she is remaining New Order.  Now, is it true about not knowing their catechism.  Well, I can only say how my mother came across and not all are going to be like her.  Here goes.  It was my Grandmother, my mom's mother who was educated via my great-great uncle Fr. Stoltz.  He was from the Precious Blood Society, trained in Collegeville, IN in 1898 or such and at Carthegenia, OH at St. Charles seminary during the early 1900's and was ordained in 1907 a priest for 34 years.  When he came to the family, in Indiana, they had talks and rosary and dinner.  That was how they were educated.  Whatever Fr. Stoltz was taught, it came to the family.  Books were not around as much as they are now, or at least not in our area.  It was my grandmother, who was known to say, "There goes the Church!" when Vatican II was begun.  See, she knew!  My mother was the youngest of 8 children, born in 1931.  She was in a catholic school.  She was not a reader and did not have desires there.  She married at age 19 and had 9 of us and I was number 2.  If we, my parents were to be educated on the Faith, it came from the pulpit.  We had the Sunday Visitor and that was it and the newspaper. A library was not in our catholic school til I was in 3rd grade.  We did have Vision Books of the saints.  But as to education of what was coming, like modernism and such, no, it was not there.  There was no talk of if at our kitchen table.  What was talk, was where will we hide for fallout for protection.  You see, it was talk of the bodily.  Then what was floating around was in the backs of our heads from the protestant relatives from my dads' side. (my dad was a convert when married).  What that was, was that the protestants could be saved too.  Like the catholics are not better than protestants.  So, even though it was not talked about, it was in the brains of us.  If you did not have the catechism, you could not answer to the things coming into the mind.  So, when changes came in about 1963 or such, those who did not understand their Faith, or could not answer to what was happening, went along with it.  And continued to go along with it and some liked the changes.  The women wanted artificial birth control, they wanted remarriage after divorces and such.  They wanted to be accepted and so, modernism played a big part in the changes.  The priest, if they were infiltrators, kept the reasons for accepting the wrong as good changes.  My mother fell for this.  She did take on the "PILL" in 1966.  Then when dad died, 5 years later, my protestant Aunt got her introduced to a twice divorced man and the New Order priest helped my mother to rig the issue.  My mom played the game.  She had to go without sacraments for a year, while the man's 2 divorces were annulled and he became a New Order catholic and my mom went to the priest for confession and all was made right, but I was the only one of the 9 kids who did not accept the dodging of laws.  So, I am the outcast and my siblings don't call on me or my husband.  So, this 80year old lady makes a good point.  I had to learn and I had to educate myself.  If you desire a Faith that is true and solid you have to educate yourself, and you have to know where the truth is or waste your time.

    My mom was busy with 9 children and there was no rosary being said in the home.  See, there are lots of things going on that leads up to what I just told you.  Having Faith takes work.  When things came up in the family with protestants involved, my mom gagged herself to keep false peace.  She did not know what she was doing, just that she thought that was the way to handle things.  We have been conditioned and we need to educate ourselves to know what being Catholic is, how we conduct ourselves and present ourselves and such.  Without a good example, we are like orphans who are on their own, pre se to learn.


    I've said many times that following post-V2 polemics -- even from websites and books of "the good guys" -- is almost ill-advised for the team (not to say cult) mentality that it provokes.

    But personal anecdotes like this -- completely guile-less reports from first-hand witnesses -- if taken in aggregate, can bring a Catholic to a lot of certainty about the Crisis in the Church, how we must deal with it, etc.

    I guess what attracts me to posts like this are a preponderance of "facts" and not a whole lot of spin. Certainly no spin pointing me to this or that particular group... that's why it comes off very genuine.
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