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Author Topic: Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over  (Read 3646 times)

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Offline bowler

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Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
« on: December 19, 2012, 08:12:57 AM »
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  • I was going to title this thread "Dialogue Mass - Ignoring the Elephant in the Room", but I decided the title above was more precise.

    Below is an excellent article and  the only article I could find by the SSPX about the idea of the Dialogue Low Mass replacing the Low mass custom in English speaking countries, and it is against the novelty. The article is written by Rev Fr. Edward Black, District Superior SSPX Austrailia and it comes from the link:
    http://credidimus.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/dialogue-mass/

    Now, here is the "elephant in the room" that Fr. Black does not mention, Women were never allowed to sing in the chorus or the Church till the late 20th century. To be precise:

    Girls or women could not be members of any church choir (Sacred Congregation for Liturgy, decree 17 Sept. 1897).

    3964. (Trujillo, Peru.) Are women and girls to be
    allowed to sing inside or outside of the choir in any
    church during high Mass ? R. An abuse to be prudently
    and speedily done away with. 17th September, 1897. (Catholic Church Music, by Richard Terry 1907, http://media.musicasacra.com/pdf/terry.pdf )

    Pius X re-emphasised this prohibition on the ground that women were not permitted to fulfil any liturgical function (Motu proprio ‘De musica sacra’, 1903).
    “Women should not be part of a choir; they belong to the ranks of the laity. Separate women's choirs too are totally forbidden, except for serious reasons and with permission of the bishop”
    (Sacred Congregation for Liturgy, decree 22 Nov. 1907).

    “Any mixed choir of men and women, even if they stand far from the sanctuary, is totally forbidden”
    (Sacred Congregation for Liturgy, decree 18 Dec. 1908).

    Pius XII cautiously sanctioned female choristers, though only ‘outside the p r e s b y t ery or the altar precincts’ (‘Instructio de musica sacra’, AAS 48 [1956] 658).

    Now, that means that the function of singing (and responding verbally) belongs only to men. It is well known that in the Novus Ordo mass(which is a Dialogue Mass), the women have taken over the masses with their responding and singing, and the few men left, are silent. This should come as no surprise, as men are not inclined to sing and respond on command. In the old days, the choir would contain all of the men who were inclined to sing, as they were needed. Just look around at the men singing among the laity, really singing, and then rmember that the women in the choir do not belong there. Those few men singing will scaresly be enough to substitue for the women in the choir! That leaves the entire congregation silent, for women were not allowed to sing, and men do not sing.

    If the Dialogue mass were performed with only men responding, it would quickly die out, as few men would respond, hence the dialogue mass never existed in the history of the Church, and only exists (the Novus Ordo is a dialogue mass) because of the womens responding.



    Offline bowler

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 08:17:22 AM »
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  • Dialogue Mass

    by Rev. E. Black

                                           †
    As must surely be the case with many readers of The Remnant, I have
    followed the series of articles on the Dialogue Mass  under the title
    ‘Debating the Relevant Issues’ with increasing bemusement.

    In what sense is the question of the Dialogue Mass relevant to us and
    where is this debate going? The extremely detailed article of Mr Tofari was
    certainly reminiscent of the content and style of the liturgical reformers of
    the 1950s and it is not surprising that it should have evinced the alarmed
    response of Mr Dahl. Are there really any traditional Catholics ready to
    repeat the painful experiences of 50 years ago? Mr Tofari’s article seems to
    indicate that he, at least, is one. Although he rightly states that Dialogue
    Mass is not a matter of doctrine but of praxis, he nevertheless also states
    that it is an important question. Indeed it is. Silence and sound are
    mutually exclusive. If his assertion is ever conceded in practice that a
    single person who decides to avail himself of making the responses at
    Mass has every right to do so then it spells the final end of what was once
    the universal and exclusive practice of the Western Church for more than
    1000 years. Although this is an important matter, it is likewise a tiresome
    one – for it seems that every traditional institution and practice must be
    permanently placed in a position of self-defence and called upon at any
    time to justify itself.



    Second Vatican Council (1962 – 1965)

    The standard procedure of the liturgical reformers has always been to
    appeal to the practice of the early Church, ignoring the greater part of her
    history until the twentieth century, (save for the purposes of ridiculing it),
    in order to justify their innovations. Once papal sanction is granted to their
    ideas they invariably invoke this authority, oftentimes without adequate
    justification. It is truly remarkable how they did, in fact, obtain sanction for
    most of their proposed reforms both before and after the Second Vatican
    Council even to the point of the de facto abolition of the traditional rite of
    Mass itself! At the time, the average Catholic had no notion of the
    machinations of the leaders of the Liturgical Movement, or indeed of the
    liturgical practices of the primitive Church.  The argument of papal authority
    was enough for all of the reforms to be generally accepted without
    question. The final step then is to present the innovations as the authentic
    tradition of the Church.

    Mr Tofari’s article follows the same method. He attempts to prove his case
    by an appeal to the primitive Church and the Oriental rites to establish and
    prove active lay participation in the sense that such participation should be
    vocal; derides the liturgical practices of the medieval, baroque and
    subsequent eras and he even makes a case that the development of the
    liturgical practice during these long centuries was vitiated by the influence
    of Protestant individualism and pietism, etc. Even more fantastically he
    appropriates a description of the form of Low Mass which is known and
    loved by all of us as ‘the great Irish silence’, as if this practice was not
    universal throughout the worldwide Church! Such a thesis entirely
    excludes the operation of the Holy Ghost in the development and
    enrichment of the Church’s worship throughout history.



    Solemn High Mass

    One of the most perplexing assertions is as follows: ‘… for nearly 200 years
     after the Renaissance the unfortunate liturgical status quo remained
    virtually static despite the enormous efforts of Dom Guéranger and a host
    of others. Despite more than a few errors from some, all agreed on one
    completely orthodox thought: the Church’s liturgical piety must be restored
    to the forefront of the daily life of the average Catholic.’ How can the
    liturgical life of the Church as always practised be unfortunate? Whatever
    they had in mind to foster liturgical piety it was certainly not the Dialogue
    Mass which did not exist, nor indeed was envisaged at the time.
    Furthermore, this statement overlooks the fact that it is precisely the Low
    Mass which brings this liturgical piety to the forefront of the daily life of the
    average Catholic. Given that the Solemn High Mass is the accepted original
    and authentic form of the Roman liturgy, it is manifest that it could not be
    celebrated every day except in places like great cathedrals and monastic
    establishments. In order to make it possible for the priest to celebrate and
    for the laity to participate on a daily basis the ‘silent’ Low Mass was
    devised. [The author is aware that parts of the Low Mass are to be recited
    in a clear voice. He uses the term ‘silent’ in order to distinguish it from
    Dialogue Mass].

    [uploaded attachment - it was too wide and I tried to shrink it ~ N.G.]
    Iconostasis in a Greek Catholic Cathedral

    Could anything be more apostolic – the possibility which the Low Mass
    provided of having the Holy Sacrifice in almost any place or circuмstance –
    thus rendering the highest act of worship accessible to all? This is surely
    the greatest expression of an authentic active lay participation in the
    liturgical life of the Church! To appeal to the Oriental rites as providing
    superior lay participation is fatuous. Mr Tofari states that, ‘even today the
    very idea of the laity attending the Divine Liturgy as muted spectators is
    incomprehensible in the Eastern rites’. Of course, as in the Roman rite, the
    laity of the Eastern Rites may participate in the liturgical chant but unlike us
    they may not, in reality, be spectators at all as the iconostasis completely
    obscures their view! Interestingly enough, the iconostasis is not intended
    as a means of excluding the laity, but rather its doors represent the link
    between heaven and earth. This indeed represents more authentically the
    idea of the union of priest and people at the Mass throughout the
    centuries. A notion which, of course, is completely rejected by the Liturgical
    Movement of the twentieth century. Furthermore, the Orientals may not
    assist at Mass every day for the reasons stated above, and finally, there is
    no provision for Dialogue Mass in the their Rites!

    The author of Liturgical Principles and Notions makes the case that as the
    laity have always been permitted to sing the High Mass, it is logical that
    they should be allowed to make the responses at Low Mass. As this seems
    reasonable, we may well wonder why, until the twentieth century, this was
    never done or even encouraged anywhere. The idea that it was the result
    of persecution in anti-Catholic countries is a fallacy. Dialogue Mass was
    quite as unknown in the Papal States as in the Ireland of penal times!
    Indeed, the fact that Sung Mass (Missa Cantata) only appeared in the
    eighteenth century and bilingual missals for laity in the nineteenth
    suggests that the idea of active lay participation – if such an idea existed
    at the time – was, in fact, discouraged. That this state of affairs existed for
    more than 1000 years must surely mean that it cannot be considered
    merely as an abuse [and] as the result of neglect of the laity by the popes
    and ecclesiastical authorities. This being so, I submit that it stemmed from
    the fact that it is never necessary to state the obvious. It is only when
    things become obscured that it is necessary to explain their meaning. The
    liturgy of the Church had always been understood as a common act, [that
    is], the physical presence of the ritualised sacrifice of Calvary rather than
    an exercise of Common prayer.

    No doubt Christ’s sacrifice is indeed a prayer – even the highest prayer
    which exists – but a distinction must be made. This is quite well summed
    up in a nineteenth-century polemical writing against Protestant notions of
    worship which I quote in extenso as it gives a view entirely opposite to
    that of Mr Tofari; [that is], that rather it is active participation in the sense
    in which he understands it that is influenced by Protestant notions – not
    the reverse!

        The main difficulty experienced by Protestants in witnessing Catholic
    worship arises from their not understanding the difference between a
    common act and a common prayer. The acts of the Church, such as
    processions, expositions of the Blessed Sacrament, the administration of
    the Sacraments, and above all the Holy Sacrifice, are indeed always
    accompanied by prayer, and generally by prayers of priest and people,
    though not necessarily by united or common prayer. In any case, the act
    must be distinguished from the prayers.

        A Protestant may easily understand what is meant by this distinction by
    aid of a few illustrations: Suppose a ship, filled with a mixed crew of
    [English,] French, Spanish and Portuguese is being wrecked off the coast
    of England. A crowd is assembled on the cliff, watching with intense
    earnestness the efforts being made by the captain and crew on the one
    hand, and by life boats from the coast on the other, to save the lives of the
    passengers. A great act is being performed, in which all are taking part,
    some as immediate actors; others as eager assistants. We may suppose
    this act carried out in the midst of united prayers. English, French, Spanish,
    Portuguese, each in their own tongues and many without spoken words at
    all, are sending up petitions to Almighty God for the safety of the
    passengers. It is a common act at which they assist; it is accompanied by
    the prayers of all; but they are not common prayers, in the sense of all
    joining either vocally or mentally in the same form of words.


        When the priest Zacharias had gone into the temple of the Lord to offer
    incense, and ‘all the multitude of the people was praying without’ (Luke
    1:9), there was a common act performed by priest and people – by the
    priest as actor, by the people as assistants – and the act was accompanied
    by united prayers. But it mattered not to the people what language was
    spoken by the priest or what sacred formulae were used. Their intentions
    were joined with his. Their individual and varied petitions were one great
    Amen said to his sacerdotal invocations; and all ascended together in a
    sweet-smelling cloud of incense to Heaven.

        Or to come still nearer to Catholic worship, let the reader represent to
    himself the great act of Calvary. Our Lord Jesus


        ‘Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?’

        Christ is Priest and Victim. He accompanies His oblation of Himself with
    mysterious and most sacred prayer. Two of His seven words are from the
    Psalms; and it has therefore been conjectured that He continued to recite
    secretly the Psalm, after giving us the clue to it, by pronouncing the words,
    ‘Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? – My God, my God , why hast Thou forsaken
    Me?’ Or again, ‘Father, into Thy hands I commend My Spirit.’ There were
    many assistants at that act and among those who assisted piously – the
    Blessed Mother of Jesus, the Apostle St John, the holy women, the
    centurion, the multitude ‘who returned striking their breasts’ – there was a
    certain unity in variety, not a uniform prayer, yet a great act of harmonious
    worship.

        There are, then, prayers used in Catholic churches in which the whole
    congregation joins, such as the singing of hymns, the recitation of the
    Rosary, performing the Stations of the Way of the Cross, especially the
    chanting of Vespers or Compline. Such prayers are either recited in the
    vernacular, or, when Latin is used, they require some little education in
    those who take a direct and vocal part in them. But the great act of
    Catholic worship is the Holy Mass, or the Unbloody Sacrifice. One alone
    stands forth and makes the awful offering; the rest kneel around, and join
    their intentions and devotions with his; but even were there not a solitary
    worshipper present, the sacrifice both for the living and dead would be
    efficacious and complete. To join in this act of sacrifice, and to participate in
    its effects, it is not necessary to follow the priest or to use the words he
    uses. Every Catholic knows what the priest is doing, though he may not
    know or understand what he is saying, and is consequently able to follow
    with his devotions every portion of the Holy Sacrifice. Hence, [it is] a
    wonderful union of sacrificial, of congregational and of individual devotion.
    The prayers of the priest are not substituted for those of the people. No
    one desires to force his brother against his will.

        It is the most marvellous unity of liberty and law which this earth can
    show. The beggar with his beads, the child with her pictures, the
    gentleman with his missal, the maiden meditating on each mystery of the
    Passion, or adoring her God in silent love too deep for words, and the
    grateful communicant, have but one intent, one meaning, and one heart,
    as they have one action, one object, before their mental vision. They bow
    themselves to the dust as sinners; they pray to be heard for Christ’s sake;
    they joyfully accept His words as the words of God;  they offer the bread
    and wine; they unite themselves with the celebrant in the Sacrifice of the
    Body and Blood of Christ, which he as their priest offers for them; they
    communicate spiritually; they give thanks for the ineffable gift which God
    has given them. Their words differ, their thoughts vary; but their hearts are
    united and their will is one. Therefore is their offering pure and acceptable
    in the sight of Him who knows their secret souls, and who accepts a man,
    not for the multitude or the fewness of his sayings, for his book or for his
    beads, but for the intention with which he has, according to his sphere and
    capacities, fulfilled His sacred will, through the merits of the Adorable Victim
    who is offered for him. (Ritual of the New Testament by Rev. T. G. Bridgett)




    Father William Doyle preaches his last homily in 1917 from a pulpit in the nave of the church.

    One may also suppose that Dialogue Mass was never considered an option
    until modern times as it would have been simply impractical. It is impossible
    for a priest at a distant altar to dialogue with a large congregation without
    the use of a microphone as otherwise he could not be heard and, in any
    case, in many churches the priest was separated from the congregation by
    the rood screen which divided the sanctuary from the nave. We are all
    familiar with the fact that in large churches the pulpit was placed in the
    nave quite far from the altar and raised up on high so that the sermon
    could be heard. Similarly, churches would have had to be completely
    reorganised in order for Mass to be heard, thus destroying all of the
    mystical symbolism of the cruciform plan. Interestingly enough, the new
    emphasis on vocal participation even before the Council, or any thought of
    a new Mass in the minds of most people, had already produced the
    beginnings of the new church architecture:

        Reconceiving liturgical space had begun; especially with St Michael’s in
    Burlington, Vermont in 1944. A more radical step was Blessed Sacrament
    Church in Holyoke, Massachusetts, built in 1953. Here the altar was dead
    centre in an octagonal church and surrounded by eight rows of pews. This
    soon turned out not to be the answer, but it did herald the movement to
    reconceiving the relationship of congregational space to the sanctuary. All
    was still in flux when events after Vatican II soon gave new directions to
    church building.’ (Roman Catholic Worship: Trent to Today by James White)


    These churches were built for the old Mass – not the new – but a Mass in
    which obviously active vocal participation was very strong in influencing the
    design!

    There is a very significant difference between singing and speaking in a
    language which one does not understand. The music itself is a profound
    expression of the soul and the meaning of the individual words which are
    sung is often secondary. It is sufficient to consider that a person ignorant
    of the Italian language might happily listen to an opera in that language
    but would certainly hesitate to listen to a play. Indeed, raising the mind
    and heart to God is the very essence and definition of prayer which need
    not be synonymous with an exercise of the vocal chords.

    A final reason why vocal participation was never encouraged, particularly
    after the Tridentine missal was promulgated, was the danger that such
    participation would demonstrate similarities to Protestant worship and the
    likely conclusion that intelligent spoken participation would produce a
    demand for vernacular liturgy. It was also this concern which motivated the
    prohibition against translating the Missal mentioned below.

    Later history was to prove that these concerns were entirely justified.
    Finally, we come to the ultimate argument – that of authority – and indeed
    Mr Tofari devotes almost the entire second part of his article to the 1958
    Instruction ‘On Sacred Music And Liturgy’ with its unambiguous assertion
    that ‘a final method of participation, and the most perfect form, is for the
    congregation to make the liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest,
    thus affording a sort of dialogue with him, and reciting aloud the parts
    which properly belong to them.’ Obviously, this is intended to be the fatal
    blow to all opposition!



    Pope Alexander VII

    It must be noted, however, that this ‘most perfect’ form of participation is
    at odds with the Church’s traditional practice. The contemporary ideal of
    placing the Roman missal in the hands of the faithful in such a way that
    united to the priest, they may pray with the same words and sentiment of
    the Church – whether the Mass be silent or dialogue – was impossible of
    achievement for the far greater part of the Church’s history as the vast
    majority of any congregation would have been unable to read, the printing
    press not yet invented, or books too expensive. It is really only towards
    the end of the nineteenth century that cheap books became available to
    the average person so it is perfectly clear that the liturgy was never
    designed with this type of participation in mind. In this connection Mr Tofari
    observes ‘this individualist Protestant spirit began to gradually seep in
    amongst the Catholic clergy and laity alike. It contributed to Catholics
    following private devotions during their attendance at Mass, rather than
    communally uniting themselves to the liturgical actions. Meanwhile, the age
    of the printing press was on hand to deliver a prolific number of “Mass
    prayer books” whose contents were usually devotions far removed from
    the sacrificial action taking place at the altar.’ Of course, the true reason for
    this state of affairs has nothing whatsoever to do with Protestantism but
    the simple fact that it was forbidden by the Church authorities to translate
    the missal, e.g., 1661 Pope Alexander VII condemned a missal translated
    into French and forbade any further translations under pain of
    excommunication. This prohibition was renewed by Pius IX as late as 1857
    and only in 1897 was it no longer enforced.

    Dismissing all objections against the Dialogue Mass, Mr Tofari generously
    asserts that nevertheless, ‘…some Catholics still remain adamant in
    following their own desires rather than the Church’s will. However, it must
    be assumed that they act in good, but ill-informed faith.’ On the contrary,
    however, we are rather too well informed! By 1958, Annibale Bugnini
    (whose name is synonymous with the New Mass and [was] the key figure
    in the pre- and post-Conciliar changes) had been secretary of the
    Commission for Liturgical Reform for already ten years and much progress
    had already been achieved, including limited use of the vernacular in
    certain rites. Pius XII died only a few weeks later and things were set in
    motion for the Council. As the Dialogue Mass was the spearhead of the
    Liturgical Movement’s desire for active lay participation, it is not surprising
    that it should be praised as the ‘most perfect form’ of assistance in this
    docuмent. Nevertheless, this same Instruction of 1958 does not make this
    method of participation in any sense obligatory but rather recognises that
    ‘…all are not equally capable of correctly understanding the rites and
    liturgical formulas; nor does everyone possess the same spiritual needs;
    nor do the needs remain constant in the same individual. Therefore, these
    people may find a more suitable or easier method of participation in the
    Mass when they meditate devotedly on the mysteries of Jesus Christ, or
    perform other devotional exercises and offer prayers which, although
    different in form from those of the sacred rites, are in essential harmony
    with them.’

    It is therefore obvious that to insist that this one manner of assisting at
    Mass is more in conformity with ‘the mind of the Church’ is something of an
    exaggeration.


    Pope St Pius X

    It is necessary to be clear in one’s mind that the Dialogue Mass is a novelty
     in the history of the Church. Even those who approve of it and feel that it
    is an improvement on what went before must, in all honesty, admit this for
    it does nothing for their case to pretend otherwise. It was quite unknown
    before the twentieth century. St Pius X did not envisage Dialogue Mass but
    rather congregational singing when he advocated ‘active participation’ for,
    although the Dialogue Mass simply did not exist in his day, he could easily
    have introduced it. This is proved by his radical reform of the Roman
    Breviary which clearly demonstrates that he did not hesitate to implement
    liturgical change which he considered necessary. His successor Benedict XV
    is credited with having done so and of having personally celebrated
    Dialogue Mass once in his priesthood which lasted 44 years. It seems that
    Pius XI celebrated it twice. This does not indicate that they considered it a
    high priority but it was enthusiastically adopted in latter years by bishops
    and clergy who were very progressive at the time, especially in France and
    Germany.

    Also it is not, and has never been, obligatory although, inevitably,
    wherever it was introduced there would always be found someone who
    would exercise their ‘right’ (!) to make the responses so that over a period
    of time in the countries mentioned above where it was encouraged and
    introduced early on, it eventually became the exclusive practice. The result
    is that in these places the ‘silent’ Mass on public occasions has passed out
    of living memory and consequently the average Traditional Catholic there
    who understandably has little knowledge of liturgical history believes that
    it has been practiced in every era since the early Church. Paradoxically, or
    providentially, it was not adopted in English-speaking lands as their
    bishops in the 1940s and 50s were generally very conservative and
    therefore not particularly interested in the Liturgical Movement and its
    ideas. The fact that the former countries are ‘Catholic’ while the latter are
    ‘Protestant’ has given rise to the misconception that reluctance to embrace
    the Dialogue Mass is the result of unconscious Protestant influences but
    nothing is further from the truth.

    The Dialogue Mass, being less than 90 years old in comparison with the
    2000 year old history of Church’s worship, must be seen in the context of
    the unprecedented and constant changes in the liturgy which took place in
    the twentieth century. Most of these were of very short duration. A striking
    case is that of the Breviary. Even before the Council, the Roman Breviary –
    the most important book after the Mass – suffered very important and
    short-lived changes. In 1911 Pius X drastically altered the immemorial
    breviary codified by Pius V in 1567. Only 34 years later Pius XII introduced
    a completely new Latin Psalter to replace the one which had been in
    constant use since the earliest days of the Church. Although in theory
    optional, breviaries were no longer printed with the old Psalter. This was
    reversed by John XXIII who made further alterations in 1960 and restored
    the old Psalter. Almost everyone then abandoned that of Pius XII. This is
    only one example of the numerous liturgical changes which took place
    without ceasing throughout the period from the reign of Pius X to that of
    John XXIII before the traditional liturgy was finally abandoned. Nothing like
    it had ever been known in the entire history of the Church. It is therefore
    obvious that liturgical directives do not remain binding for all time! If this is
    true of Papal Bulls it is all the more so in the case of an instruction on
    Sacred Music which seems to form the ultimate basis of Mr Tofari’s
    argument from authority.

    Most of these changes, unprecedented and far-reaching as they were,
    passed unnoticed by the average layman. However, papal-approved
    liturgical change was the daily bread of the priests for half a century before
    the Council (being equal in length to the entire priestly life of many of
    them) and had become all too familiar. This surely explains why the
    post-Conciliar reforms met with little clerical resistance but indeed were
    largely received with enthusiasm or equanimity much to the bewilderment
    of the Faithful. The survival of the traditional liturgy was due largely to the
    efforts of laymen to whom the New Mass and the notion of radical change
    to the sacred liturgy was a tremendous shock. They had the very greatest
    difficulty in finding priests prepared or interested in celebrating the
    Traditional Mass for them since the direction in which things were moving
    had been clear for years:

        In 1956 Gerald Ellard published The Mass in Transition. He began by
    acknowledging that his 1948 book The Mass of the Future was already out
    of date, so rapidly had liturgical practice progressed. People were
    beginning to grasp the difference between praying at Mass and praying
    the Mass itself. Various practices were becoming common. Vernacular
    missals were now in the hands of millions of lay people. In a few places the
    altars had already been prised loose from walls and priests were
    celebrating facing the people albeit it with a tabernacle in the way. The so
    called Dialogue Mass was well on the way to being no longer a rarity in the
    United States and was prevalent in Germany. (Roman Catholic Worship:
    Trent to Today by James White)

    Towards the end of his lengthy article, after having wistfully considered the
    possibility of an authentic liturgical reform if the pre-Conciliar popes had
    been heeded and the ‘intransigency of the pietists’ had not been a
    contributing factor to frustrating this, Mr Tofari states:


        Many may not prefer the Dialogue Mass and that is their prerogative.
    Nonetheless, one must avoid equating the legitimate practice of the
    Dialogue Mass with the illegitimate child which is the Novus Ordo Missae.
    The illogical post hoc ergo propter hoc must stop in the assertion that the
    Dialogue Mass was ‘the beginning of the end’ for the liturgical revolution
    imposed in the wake of the Second Vatican Council.


    Low Mass

    Then finally, with amazing self confidence, he asserts that ‘both claims are
    faulty, having liturgical misconceptions or improper context as their basis’.
    However, it is perhaps rather Mr Tofari’s claims that are based on liturgical
    misconceptions and improper context and dispel his assertion that the
    ‘silent’ Mass is in any way influenced by pietism. If the faithful were ‘mute
    spectators’ before the twentieth century, it was the result of deliberate
    policy by the Popes and the highest authorities of the Church for 1000
    years and not the result of any ill-will or preference of their own. The mildly
    derogatory expression of ‘mute spectators’ in a pontifical docuмent was
    surely the indication of a radical change of policy and was understood as
    such. This is surely why it is not possible to find pontifical docuмents in
    praise of the ‘silent’ Mass for it was simply a fact of life in the Church and
    required no praise or justification unlike the new form of participation which
    required to be promoted.

    Furthermore, these changes were all promoted by the very same people
    who established the New Mass and the new liturgy, [and] so when Mr
    Tofari poses the question, ‘What kind of liturgical reform would have
    occurred in the wake of the Second Vatican Council if the pre-Conciliar
    popes had been heeded?’, it is not too difficult to find an answer. What
    indeed does Mr Tofari imagine himself? For after Dialogue Mass there is
    nothing left to reform except the rite itself and/or render it in the
    vernacular. This was, in fact, the direction of liturgical scholarship before
    the Council. The most authoritative work on the Mass produced during
    these years is Joseph Jungmann’s epic work ‘Missarum Solemnia’,
    published in 1949 with several later additions. Much of Mr Tofari’s article
    seems to be based on this book with which he appears to be familiar.

    Here is what Jungmann has to say about the Tridentine form of Mass:

        After fifteen hundred years of unbroken development in the rite of the
    Roman Mass, after the rushing and the streaming from every height and
    out of every valley, the Missal of Pius V was indeed a powerful dam holding
    back the waters or permitting them to flow through only in firm, well-built
    canals. At one blow all arbitrary meandering to one side or another was
    cut off, all floods prevented, and a safe, regular and useful flow assured.
    But the price paid was this, that the beautiful river valley now lay barren
    and the forces of further evolution were often channelled into the narrow
    bed of a very inadequate devotional life instead of gathering strength for
    new forms of liturgical expression… In fact someone has styled this period
    of Church history as the epoch of inactivity or of rubrics.

    With regard to the vernacular he is much more cautious (after all this is written in 1949!):

        The monumental greatness of the Roman Mass lies in its antiquity which
    reaches back to the Church of the martyrs, and in its spread which, with its
    Latin language, spans so many nations. Nowhere else is it so plain that
    the Church is both apostolic and catholic. But this double advantage of the
    Roman Mass also involves weaknesses. The Latin tongue is nowadays
    become more and more unfamiliar even to cultured people. Will there ever
    be any relaxing in this matter in the setting of the Mass? …

        The Latin language is only one of the peculiarities of the Roman liturgy
    that, due to its venerable age, has to some extent become a problem… In
    the present shape of the Roman Mass, forms and practices have been
    retained which are no longer comprehensible to the ordinary onlooker.

    As the New Mass provides for nothing other than active lay participation, it
    is surely not unreasonable to believe that the Dialogue Mass was a
    significant step towards the introduction of the new liturgy. Although the
    adage post hoc ergo propter hoc is certainly a logical fallacy if applied in
    every circuмstance, it does not alter the fact that effect most surely follows
    cause and we can now see with hindsight where all these changes were
    leading. It is now no longer possible to maintain with objectivity that
    liturgical changes such as the Dialogue Mass were completely unrelated to
    what was to follow.

    We conclude this article at the point where we began. The Dialogue Mass
    is nothing more than a liturgical praxis. Although it may not be Modernist, it
    is undoubtedly modern and imbued with the spirit of the age which
    produced it as Joseph Jungmann in Missarum Solmenia frankly admits,

        … from the Dialogue Mass the Faithful gain a living knowledge of the
    actual course of the Mass and so they can follow the Low Mass as well as
    the Solemn Mass with an entirely new understanding. To have been
    deprived of such an understanding much longer would not have been
    tolerable even to the masses in this age of advanced education and
    enhanced self consciousness. But what is even more important, now that
    the Faithful answer the priest and concur in his prayers, sacrifice with him
    and communicate with him, they become properly conscious for the first
    time of their dignity as Christians. (!)

    Even if it is readily conceded that Dialogue Mass is neither Modernist nor
    heretical, this is not to say that it is desirable. Many practices of the Church
    in previous centuries were abandoned for good reasons and it is most
    unwise to revive them now. Even if there was a liturgy in the early Church
    which approximated to the Dialogue Mass it is well known that there was
    also Mass in the vernacular, Communion under two kinds and in the hand,
    Mass sometimes celebrated facing the people and a married priesthood
    (even the first Pope was married!). None of these practices are in
    themselves against the Faith and were quite legitimate but recent history
    has proved what dire consequences have ensued when many of them
    were revived after the Second Vatican Council.



    Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre

    Neither is it in any sense desirable to introduce Dialogue Mass in places
    where it has never been the established practice before the Council. The
    faith of most Catholics was nurtured by the liturgical forms of their youth
    and there is no excuse to disturb this now and renew the bitter
    experiences of the pre- and post-Conciliar years. This was the praxis
    adopted by Archbishop Lefebvre in the Society of St Pius X during the years
    when this Society was effectively the sole guardian of the traditional rites
    and this is surely the most wise and considerate position to continue to
    adopt at the present time. One day the Liturgical Movement with its
    twentieth century ideas and assumptions will be judged in the light of
    history. To some extent this has already begun. Until then, may all
    reforming zeal according to its questionable principles, such as is
    expressed by Mr. Tofari’s article, cease! As St. Paul says, ‘all things are
    lawful to me; but all things are not expedient’ (I Cor.VI.12).

    Let us, therefore, treasure the traditional form of ‘silent’ Low Mass as one
    of our greatest treasures. This is the form of Mass developed at a high
    point of Catholic culture and devotion in an era which we love to call the
    ‘Age of Faith’. This is the form of Mass which nurtured the spiritual life of the
    saints who were the greatest of the true reformers of the Church, Sts.
    Francis, Dominic, Bernard, Ignatius, Catherine of Sienna, Teresa of Avila,
    etc. None of them were dissatisfied with the ‘silent’ Mass, as known by
    them and us, but rather they loved it and there is no evidence that they
    felt that they suffered any deprivation from their lack of ‘active
    participation’ in the worship of Christ’s Mystical Body. Let us also love and
    be thankful for this grace and ‘be zealous for the better gifts’ (I Cor. XII.31).

                                                  †







    Offline bernadette

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 10:31:04 AM »
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  • There's nothing that the majority of women love more than to blast out singing at mass...give them an inch and they'll take a mile.  The way I see it, men need to step up to the plate and take control, just as a Catholic man will do in his own family...singing out loud by women is vanity, a need to be heard, showing off, sometimes, I wish women as a whole could understand better the reasoning behind it...I'm a woman who can see that humility, and an entire host of virtues, has been lost in the emergence of feminism.  But honestly...I don't like to hear other women sing...it has a busy-body yentl ring about it.

    Women can still form their glee clubs and sing for retirement homes or charity events....but certainly they should not sing at mass....in my opinion.

    Offline Columba

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #3 on: December 19, 2012, 01:01:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    the function of singing (and responding verbally) belongs only to men. It is well known that in the Novus Ordo mass(which is a Dialogue Mass), the women have taken over the masses with their responding and singing, and the few men left, are silent.

    Now the importance of this issue is becoming more clear. Thank you for being so uncommonly frank about it.

    Offline Catechist99

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #4 on: December 20, 2012, 12:13:38 AM »
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  • ICC has a mixed choir with perhaps a dozen young, nubile girl singers.  Several of the male members quit for this caused problems at home, if you know what I mean.


    Offline Matthew

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #5 on: December 20, 2012, 01:17:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler

    ...as men are not inclined to sing and respond on command. In the old days, the choir would contain all of the men who were inclined to sing, as they were needed. Just look around at the men singing among the laity, really singing, and then rmember that the women in the choir do not belong there. Those few men singing will scaresly be enough to substitue for the women in the choir! That leaves the entire congregation silent, for women were not allowed to sing, and men do not sing.

    If the Dialogue mass were performed with only men responding, it would quickly die out, as few men would respond, hence the dialogue mass never existed in the history of the Church, and only exists (the Novus Ordo is a dialogue mass) because of the womens responding.


    That is ridiculous. There is no good reason why "men do not sing".

    It's only modern American men that have a problem with letting their voice be heard, because there is a chronic problem of "men being un-manned" these days.

    Perhaps it's a move toward the specialized "cog in a machine" that can easily be trained and replaced, away from the older notion of the dignified renaissance man who was valuable by himself -- often irreplaceable -- and could do a bit of everything?

    A real man isn't embarrassed or afraid to raise his voice in song in such a way that everyone can hear him specifically and know that it's him singing. Americans are the biggest wusses in this category, or at least tied for first.

    Nowadays the only time a young American man will "sing" is if the band is modern and "cool" and the voice isn't very melodious at all -- then it MIGHT be socially acceptable to sing out loud...almost.
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    Offline Vladimir

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #6 on: December 20, 2012, 01:20:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: bowler

    ...as men are not inclined to sing and respond on command. In the old days, the choir would contain all of the men who were inclined to sing, as they were needed. Just look around at the men singing among the laity, really singing, and then rmember that the women in the choir do not belong there. Those few men singing will scaresly be enough to substitue for the women in the choir! That leaves the entire congregation silent, for women were not allowed to sing, and men do not sing.

    If the Dialogue mass were performed with only men responding, it would quickly die out, as few men would respond, hence the dialogue mass never existed in the history of the Church, and only exists (the Novus Ordo is a dialogue mass) because of the womens responding.


    That is ridiculous. There is no reason why "men do not sing".

    It's only modern American men that have a problem with letting their voice be heard, because there is a chronic problem of "men being un-manned" these days.

    Perhaps it's a move toward the specialized "cog in a machine" that can easily be trained and replaced, away from the older notion of the dignified renaissance man who was valuable by himself -- often irreplaceable -- and could do a bit of everything?

    A real man isn't embarrassed or afraid to raise his voice in song in such a way that everyone can hear him specifically and know that it's him singing. Americans are the biggest wusses in this category, or at least tied for first.

    Nowadays the only time a young American man will "sing" is if the band is modern and "cool" and the voice isn't very melodious at all -- then it MIGHT be socially acceptable to sing out loud...almost.


    I'd sing loudly.....

    ....if everyone would transpose all the hymns and chants down two octaves!!

    I haven't developed my voice range that high yet, and my falsetto is undeveloped.

    There are few things more *manly* than the sound of a lot of men singing. Seems obvious, but it's lost on many.

    Since the hymnals in the pews don't have the bass part, I can only do my best to semi-whisper the melody so as to not hurt my throat or offend the ears of my neighbors.



    Offline Matthew

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #7 on: December 20, 2012, 03:05:29 AM »
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  • All you have to do is sing an octave (or two) lower.

    Sometimes they'll sing something too low, and I'll take it an octave higher!
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    Offline Ambrose

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #8 on: December 20, 2012, 03:31:34 AM »
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  • Quote
    A real man isn't embarrassed or afraid to raise his voice in song in such a way that everyone can hear him specifically and know that it's him singing. Americans are the biggest wusses in this category, or at least tied for first.


    Well said.  If I may also add:  A real man does not fear to show his love for God in song, in speech, and in action.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline bowler

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #9 on: December 20, 2012, 08:58:06 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: bowler

    ...as men are not inclined to sing and respond on command. In the old days, the choir would contain all of the men who were inclined to sing, as they were needed. Just look around at the men singing among the laity, really singing, and then rmember that the women in the choir do not belong there. Those few men singing will scaresly be enough to substitue for the women in the choir! That leaves the entire congregation silent, for women were not allowed to sing, and men do not sing.

    If the Dialogue mass were performed with only men responding, it would quickly die out, as few men would respond, hence the dialogue mass never existed in the history of the Church, and only exists (the Novus Ordo is a dialogue mass) because of the womens responding.


    That is ridiculous. There is no good reason why "men do not sing".

    It's only modern American men that have a problem with letting their voice be heard, because there is a chronic problem of "men being un-manned" these days.

    Perhaps it's a move toward the specialized "cog in a machine" that can easily be trained and replaced, away from the older notion of the dignified renaissance man who was valuable by himself -- often irreplaceable -- and could do a bit of everything?

    A real man isn't embarrassed or afraid to raise his voice in song in such a way that everyone can hear him specifically and know that it's him singing. Americans are the biggest wusses in this category, or at least tied for first.

    Nowadays the only time a young American man will "sing" is if the band is modern and "cool" and the voice isn't very melodious at all -- then it MIGHT be socially acceptable to sing out loud...almost.


    This has nothing to do with macho-ness, it is just that the vast majority of men do not sing. Hey, the vast majority of men do not have an inclination nor a talent for literature, engineering, science, basketball, baseball,  plumbing, mechanics, farming and pretty much everything. Likewise, singing, and the inclination to sing is a gift and a talent. We have a bunch of men who each lead the rosary on alternating Sundays, and not one of them can intone the Gloria Patri. It throws everyone off till maybe the Sicut era. It's a fact that men don't like to sing in public and it has nothing to do with macho-ness or not.

    Anyhow, once you eliminate the women from singing, then and only then can you test your theory. This thread is not about men not having the inclination and talent to sing, it is about "Women Taking Over", that women were never allowed to sing, and that the Dialogue Low Mass will just give women a chance to take over the traditional mass, just like they did in the Novus Ordo.

    Offline Magna opera Domini

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #10 on: December 20, 2012, 01:27:38 PM »
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  • Thank you, Bowler, for posting this useful article by Fr. Black.


    Offline Vladimir

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #11 on: December 20, 2012, 01:45:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    All you have to do is sing an octave (or two) lower.

    Sometimes they'll sing something too low, and I'll take it an octave higher!


    Singing down the octave is a huge "no-no" in choir, I thought it applied here as well...

    I guess not!




    Offline stgobnait

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #12 on: December 20, 2012, 02:47:53 PM »
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  • america doesnt have a monoply on wusses...... i dont know how we ever got a traditional Mass..... if we depended on what we have today, it wouldnt happen....

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #13 on: December 20, 2012, 02:50:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Vladimir
    Quote from: Matthew
    All you have to do is sing an octave (or two) lower.

    Sometimes they'll sing something too low, and I'll take it an octave higher!


    Singing down the octave is a huge "no-no" in choir, I thought it applied here as well...

    I guess not!



    We actually had someone who had sung in operas before sing down an octave.  I wondered why he did it.  He was a strong baritone who could sing all the high parts in "Oh Holy Night"

    Offline bowler

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    Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over
    « Reply #14 on: December 21, 2012, 08:33:16 AM »
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  • Getting back on track:

    Quote from: bowler

    This thread is not about men not having the inclination and talent to sing, it is about "Women Taking Over", that women were never allowed to sing, and that the Dialogue Low Mass will just give women a chance to take over the  traditional mass, just like they did in the Novus Ordo.