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Author Topic: strong quote from St Augustine  (Read 2224 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: strong quote from St Augustine
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2024, 01:48:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Simeon on August 06, 2024, 01:21:57 PM
    The false church of antichrist existed when he wrote it, existed at Calvary, exists now. What St. Augustine wrote applies to all times. It's application is prompted and precipitated by emergencies which are capable of being comprehended by all Catholics of all ages.

    Catholics must be in a right relationship to both the True Church and the false church, or else perish. Period. 60 years of Vatican II, 60 years of Divine unmasking and unveiling. No, you are culpable if you "stubbornly" insist on calling the false church of satan the True Church of Jesus Christ.

    I'm not your judge, but I am reality's judge, by the moral and spiritual imperatives of my created rational nature, and of my Baptismal Vows.
    I said sedeism didn't exist - even with "the false church of antichrist" and I said what he wrote is truth,  "...a Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body, cut off, he is made a heretic..." I don't know what you are arguing?

    I am in no relationship with the NO false church. Period. And I agree "you are culpable if you "stubbornly" insist on calling the false church of satan the True Church of Jesus Christ." Which means the overwhelming vast majority of NO people ever born since V2 are culpable, what we cannot say is to what degree their culpability is, God knows, we don't.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: strong quote from St Augustine
    « Reply #16 on: August 06, 2024, 01:53:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 06, 2024, 01:24:13 PM
    Yes, yes, Fr Wathen said, "once a catholic, always a catholic" but he was speaking of POTENTIAL membership.  No baptized person loses potential membership.  But Heresy/schism concern ACTUAL membership (i.e. current status).  And such sins (and the accompanying excommunications) put one in a state of spiritual 'time out'.  Potentially, the person can get out of the 'time out/suspension' anytime they want (i.e. repentance), but until they do such, they are *treated* as being outside the church.  They can get back in the church anytime they want (an unbaptized person is not part of the church, in any way), but if there's no repentance, there's no membership.

    Analogy:  A person who passes his driver's license test is a legal driver.  But they could lose their license (it's suspended) if they repeatedly violate certain traffic laws...even though they are STILL a legal driver.  They can get their license re-instated if they pay the fines and admit guilt.  If they don't, then their status as a 'legal driver' remains suspended.
    You're going off on a defensive sede position for no reason, to understand what he says, just read what he wrote: "...a Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body, cut off, he is made a heretic..."  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: strong quote from St Augustine
    « Reply #17 on: August 06, 2024, 02:04:48 PM »
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    • Quote
    "...a Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body, cut off, he is made a heretic..."
    And the end phrase, which you are leaving off..."And the Spirit does not follow an amputated member".  (i.e. the amputated member is not part of the LIVING body anymore).


    p.s.  This has nothing to do with sedeism.  A heretic pope is spiritually suspended/impounded (Fr Chazal) but he's still the pope in a temporal way, just as the amputated body part is still part of your body.  A heretic pope is just not part of the LIVING church, just as the amputated body part is not part of the LIVING body.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: strong quote from St Augustine
    « Reply #18 on: August 06, 2024, 02:37:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 06, 2024, 02:04:48 PM
    And the end phrase, which you are leaving off..."And the Spirit does not follow an amputated member".  (i.e. the amputated member is not part of the LIVING body anymore).
    I'm leaving it off for the sake of brevity - obviously as St. Augustine said, one cut off from the Church is not a part of the living body.
     
    Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 06, 2024, 02:04:48 PM
    p.s.  This has nothing to do with sedeism.  A heretic pope is spiritually suspended/impounded (Fr Chazal) but he's still the pope in a temporal way, just as the amputated body part is still part of your body.
    To state the obvious - this is your opinion, shared by some others. It's not de fide.

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 06, 2024, 02:04:48 PM
     A heretic pope is just not part of the LIVING church, just as the amputated body part is not part of the LIVING body.
    Again to state the obvious - this is your opinion shared by some others. It's not de fide.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: strong quote from St Augustine
    « Reply #19 on: August 06, 2024, 02:45:40 PM »
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    • Stubborn, the logic is clear:

    Major:  St. Augustine said, one cut off from the Church is not a part of the living body.
    Minor:  Heresy and schism cut off one from the Church.
    Conclusion:  A heretic or schismatic is not part of the living body of the Church.

    1.  What name/phrase do you call "not part of the living body of the Church"?  You disagree with the words 'impounded/suspended' but what word do you agree with?
    2.  What are the consequences of being "cut off from the Church"?  This is the definition of being excommunicated.  Are you saying a pope can't be excommunicated?  Per Pope St Pius X and XII's conclave rule changes, they most certainly can.  So what are you arguing about?
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