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Author Topic: The New Rite and Systematic Doubt  (Read 186694 times)

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Offline charette

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The New Rite and Systematic Doubt
« on: October 31, 2025, 09:48:59 AM »
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  • I came across a statement on the New Rite claiming it is “not considered as a systematic doubt.” How can this be reconciled with Archbishop Lefebvre’s repeated warnings that the reforms introduce intrinsic defects in matter, form, and intention? Is there a nuance I’m missing, or is there a deeper theological tension here?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The New Rite and Systematic Doubt
    « Reply #1 on: October 31, 2025, 01:18:04 PM »
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  • I'm not even sure what that term means.

    There's positive doubt, negative doubt ... but systematic doubt?


    Online TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: The New Rite and Systematic Doubt
    « Reply #2 on: October 31, 2025, 04:11:24 PM »
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  • Who knows Ladislaus. Maybe its one of those crazy opinions spinning off from dogmatic sedevacantism....

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The New Rite and Systematic Doubt
    « Reply #3 on: October 31, 2025, 04:36:52 PM »
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  • Who knows Ladislaus. Maybe its one of those crazy opinions spinning off from dogmatic sedevacantism....

    Right ... as if the validity of the +Thuc line has anything to do with anyone's position on the Crisis.  Maybe Alfred Mendez was a dogmatic sedevacantist too, eh?

    You get ridiculouser and ridiculouser every time you post now.  Got nothing else left?

    Online TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: The New Rite and Systematic Doubt
    « Reply #4 on: October 31, 2025, 05:12:36 PM »
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  • Mendez had problems too


    Offline charette

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    Re: The New Rite and Systematic Doubt
    « Reply #5 on: November 01, 2025, 12:15:41 AM »
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  • I'm not even sure what that term means.

    There's positive doubt, negative doubt ... but systematic doubt?

    Thank you for the response! Here it is within its full paragraph:

    "Thus, far from making the sacramental action more readily understandable or facilitating its worthy reception, the new Rite of sacraments does otherwise. It relativizes the truths of Faith, reducing the sacred effects of sacramental graces. In this perspective, perhaps the sacraments administered according to the new Rite "might be in principle valid," IF THE MATTER, FORM, AND INTENTION are performed by a validly ordained sacred minister. To cripple one of these latter essential elements might consequently generate a doubt for their reception.
    Certainly, it is not considered as a systematic doubt. It nevertheless is a serious and important positive doubt which must be considered both by the laity receiving sacraments and by the priests for a licit performance of the sacraments, and their validity."


    -Ladislaus, the take away for me is that the above implies the New Rite is not intrinsically defective.

    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: The New Rite and Systematic Doubt
    « Reply #6 on: November 01, 2025, 04:49:06 AM »
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  • the New Rite is not intrinsically defective.
    This is what I was taught, and also, "when in doubt, do without".

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: The New Rite and Systematic Doubt
    « Reply #7 on: November 01, 2025, 06:14:27 AM »
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  • I came across a statement on the New Rite claiming it is “not considered as a systematic doubt.” How can this be reconciled with Archbishop Lefebvre’s repeated warnings that the reforms introduce intrinsic defects in matter, form, and intention? Is there a nuance I’m missing, or is there a deeper theological tension here?
    That's a new term for sure, and I could be wrong but I would say that the term means something along the lines of: "it's valid, or at least not automatically doubtful, when done by the book." Which makes about as much sense as everything else NO.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The New Rite and Systematic Doubt
    « Reply #8 on: November 01, 2025, 07:42:53 AM »
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  • I came across a statement on the New Rite claiming it is “not considered as a systematic doubt.” How can this be reconciled with Archbishop Lefebvre’s repeated warnings that the reforms introduce intrinsic defects in matter, form, and intention? Is there a nuance I’m missing, or is there a deeper theological tension here?
    If there is such a thing as systemic doubt, the V2 rites are it.  The priest is doubtful, the form is doubtful.  In some cases, even the matter is doubtful.  It’s a mess.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The New Rite and Systematic Doubt
    « Reply #9 on: November 01, 2025, 01:53:12 PM »
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  • Nowhere in Tradition does the term “systematic doubt” appear. What does it mean other than the meaning assigned by a single comment on CI—-hardly authoritative! 

    I’ll paraphrase Bp. Sanborn, “You don’t miss Mass when you’ve no Mass to miss.” 


    Offline charette

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    Re: The New Rite and Systematic Doubt
    « Reply #10 on: November 01, 2025, 10:30:12 PM »
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  • Nowhere in Tradition does the term “systematic doubt” appear. What does it mean other than the meaning assigned by a single comment on CI—-hardly authoritative!

    I’ll paraphrase Bp. Sanborn, “You don’t miss Mass when you’ve no Mass to miss.”

    This was said by his grace Bishop Zendejas on October 26th, 2025 in Saint Gallen, Switzerland, in his sermon on The Feast of Christ The King.


    Offline charette

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    Re: The New Rite and Systematic Doubt
    « Reply #11 on: November 02, 2025, 12:18:38 PM »
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  • If there is such a thing as systemic doubt, the V2 rites are it.  The priest is doubtful, the form is doubtful.  In some cases, even the matter is doubtful.  It’s a mess.

    That is what I thought Archbishop Lefebvre made clear, that the doubt was "systematic" Bishop Williamson for many years held to this as well, his excellency Bishop Williamson said : "...The New Mass is in any case illicit. In any case. It's designed to please Protestants, it's designed to undo Catholicism. It's intrinsically offensive to God, it's intrinsically evil. That's how it was designed and that's how it turned out."

    "It's intrinsically offensive to God, it's intrinsically evil." = Systematic Doubt.